lakers lose 4th inna row

Just watched the lakes get beat by griz. Pau Gasol 45 minutes in another loss. Pau 5-13 Kobe 9-25 odom plays 40 inneffective minutes

They dont do well against long front lines and team speed.

Conley just ate them tonite.

So their good but looooooonnnnngggg from unbeatable.

The Lakers do not have the fron tline rotation needed to give Gasol and Odom rest.

This is starting to wear them down.

dboss

no they dont...even with bynum they are thin.

They should have kept Turiaf,I was impressed with LO's defense on Zack Randolph,hes no Bosh.Bynum is still not right,hes behind schedule again.

odom did play good d. their offense is outta wack right now. but bynum will help them.

Jeb

Bosh is not the worst starting defensive PF in the league,I think David Lee is the worst. cow

I watched part of the Laker-Memphis game, and the Lakers didn't look good on offense or defense. It's a wonder they were even close. They sorta kinda buckled down, made plays to get in position to win it, but needed to be close to perfect down the stretch and weren't.

They are really thin up front right now. Not only do they not have Bynum (their starting center), they're also missing Theo Ratliff (their backup center). Ratliff had arthroscopic knee surgery in mid-November to repair his meniscus and is apparently out 3-5 more weeks, which is about the same timetable for Bynum. Until then, they have only three bigs -- Gasol, Odom, and rookie Derrick Caracter, who has promise but hasn't earned many minutes from Jackson despite the semi-desperate situation. Jackson wants to pick up a veteran big for the short term but management isn't willing to do that, supposedly because of the cost, which seems nuts. Whatever the case, Gasol and Odom are logging heavy minutes, and Gasol in particular is wearing down after a great start. It would be like the Celtics playing without Shaq and JON for two months. You can get away with it short-term, but it catches up with you.

If anyone's interested, here's a good discussion about their bigs.

http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2010/11/sizing-up-scenarios-that-will-give-pau-gasol-and-lamar-odom-rest.html

Kobe, to me, doesn't look right. I think his knee is still affecting him after his surgery this summer. He's doing his warrior thing, playing through it, and saying his knee is fine, but it was obvious to me that he was limited in the game last night. He had three shots blocked. I saw at least two other times that he went up for a jumper and threw a desperation pass at the last second because he was going to get his shot blocked. In the last possession, he had the ball with an opportunity to drive but instead gave up the ball to Artest. None of those things happens with normal Kobe. If Kobe is having trouble with OJ Mayo's defense, something's not right.

Assuming they have a full roster (obviously an issue with any team), they will be fine. Kobe's knee should be stronger by the end of the season. With Bynum and Ratliff back, their PF-C rotation is four deep instead of two and their bench is five deep instead of three. Even if you say Bynum's never healthy and you can't count on him, they're three deep, and Gasol and Odom can play 36-38 minutes instead of 44-45, which would be a huge improvement.

To me, Bynum is the true wild card. If he can be healthy for the playoffs, the Lakers are the team to beat. Even with his knee injured in last year's playoffs, he was a significant factor on the boards and defensively. When he's healthy, he plays at times at an elite level, and he frees up Gasol to play PF instead of center, which makes him more effective and keeps him fresh. But Bynum has to show he can stay healthy.

Outside

Gasol is a finesse player. He does not like to bang. They will be ok when bynum comes back...if he can stay on the court which he hasnt shown he can do.

sorry, i have to disagree with my friend Jeb.
i see Gasol as easily one of the top 10 players in the league and probably top five. he is very deft with a nice touch around the basket, has some twist-and-turn moves in the post a la McHale, and a short-range jumper that's a threat and has to be respected.

he has beefed up some and has learned to play tougher and bang some on both ends. he is no longer the euro-pushover he used to be.

from my vantage point, it's still kobe's team, but Gasol is right there with him in the front of the Laker pack in the leader-by-example discussion. i see him as a very dangerous opponent.

Michael

Outside,

Good points. I want to comment a little more on what you said.
The difference between LA's 8-0 start and the way they are playing now is that they are not focusing the offense around Gasol. He needs the ball in his hands much more on the low post. If Gasol has 18-20 shot attempts and 5 or more assists, LA will lose very few games. I expect them to get back to what was working earlier in the year.
LA is thin up front without Bynum and Ratliff. Their only backup center is Caracter who is 6'9", 275 ish but is not a center. He is similar to BBD but BBD has a very polished jump shot and can drive to the basket with the ball.
Caracter is only a low post guy but w/o long arms, significant jumping ability or the height of a center. He has no business playing the center position in the NBA. I loved Caracter's game in the summer league but from what I have seen so far, I doubt he will be a real contributor in the NBA.
Kobe has been great this year but right now he is trying to do too much.
Odom has also come back down to earth and is not having the 17/11/5 games he was having a couple of weeks ago.
Kobe can't jump over guys like he used to. On that last posession he had to give the ball up. Dumb Artest should have called time out, but he isn't exactly a heady player. In LA's last game against Indiana, Kobe had his shot blocked 3 times in a row on one posession but the last one was a foul. Kobe is not playing efficient ball like he was earlier in the year.
He still wants the ball on every posession at the end of the game, but if LA played smarter and stuck to the game plan, they shouldn't be in the position of needing last seconds shot against the Pacers and Grizzlies. They are quality teams with a lot of talent, but not top 10 teams in the NBA.
Bynum will make a big difference for them if he is healthy.
It is hard to look at one stretch of games and try to determine how a team will play in the future. LA and NO started off hot but are 5-5 in their last 10 games. The Knicks who aren't a very good team are 7-1 in their last 8 games.

bigpygme wrote:sorry, i have to disagree with my friend Jeb.
i see Gasol as easily one of the top 10 players in the league and probably top five. he is very deft with a nice touch around the basket, has some twist-and-turn moves in the post a la McHale, and a short-range jumper that's a threat and has to be respected.

he has beefed up some and has learned to play tougher and bang some on both ends. he is no longer the euro-pushover he used to be.

from my vantage point, it's still kobe's team, but Gasol is right there with him in the front of the Laker pack in the leader-by-example discussion. i see him as a very dangerous opponent.

Michael

Michael,

You are right with what you said. This is Kobe's team and that Gasol is a top 10 player in the NBA. What LA needs to do more of is letting the offense focus more around Gasol so Kobe can be fresh at the end of the game. When Kobe runs the offense on every posession I feel that it separates the team. Kobe feels he needs to take over because nobody else wants to and everybody else feels they can't get involved because Kobe has taken over. In LA's first 7 games (all wins) Kobe didn't shoot more then 22 shots in any game. In LA's last 3 games (all losses), Kobe has had 21, 33 and 25 shot attempts. This is a pattern that LA needs to learn from.

Regarding Gasol, I think both Jeb and Michael make valid points. Jeb's correct that Gasol is a finesse player, but that doesn't mean he's not tough. As a comparison, a guy like Blake Griffin puts the "power" in power forward, but most top power forwards are guys like KG and Nowitzki, who are long, skilled, finesse players offensively.

Gasol's reputation for being soft comes from the 2008 finals against the Celtics. It was a correct assessment at the time, but he has since worked diligently to get stronger and play tougher, and I don't think it's a fair assessment any more. I agree with Michael that he's one of the top players in the game.

bygpyg

you misread me fren. I dont like him but i do have a lot of respect for his game. Def not saying he is "soft" that would be silly at the level he has played at.

but i maintain that he likes to face the basket and is most effective when he does and i maintain that he has neither the body, temperment nor inclination to be a bruising tough center in the nba. If he is forced into that role he and the Lakers will suffer.

regards

jeb

thx to TJ and outside for their posts, and to you Jeb for the clarification.

i certainly wouldn't argue that Gasol is a top flight rough and tumble NBA center. that would be silly. i just meant that the impressions from the 08 Fianls are outdated and don't reflect his aggressive development since then.

i also think his post moves have become deft, deceptive and dexterous and don't always require him to start his move facing the basket. he is tough to defend down there, but he certainly is not a true center.


Michael

Facing the basket he is DEADLY with his back to the basket he is above average. Look the guys a stud...but if you make him stand and fight and crowd him and bump him you can beat him.

I watched every second of the last two Laker games and a good chunk a utah. Gasol looks frustrated to me. Kobe has been 2004 Kobe for the last few games and its hurting the team. Gasol knows what he can do...and what he cant.

Hibbert had the length to play Gasol straight up and he played him perfect. Gasol only dominates when he is taller.

Hibbert is a long 7'2" and frustrates most centers.
He is in the top 15 in the NBA in rebounds and blocks per 48 minutes.
He is a very good defensive center and his offensive game is coming along quickly.
There are very few tough/physical centers left in the NBA.
Other then Shaq, Perkins and Mark Gasol what centers are real physical players that Gasol might have a hard time physically with? Howard can be physical but his game is more athletic/jumping. Noah is more of a scrapper. Hibbert, Horford, Biedrins and Duncan are not physical players. Brook Lopez and Bargnani would rather play 15 feet from the basket.

Noah is deceptively physical as is Duncan.

Noah pretty well disabled Gasol the other night. The fact remains that Pau just eats guys he is taller than. Not so much when his defender is as tall as he.

Dude aint a 5. He's a 4.

Bargnani gets as close as 15 feet sometimes ????? he musta got lost.

jeb wrote:
Noah is deceptively physical as is Duncan.

Noah pretty well disabled Gasol the other night. The fact remains that Pau just eats guys he is taller than. Not so much when his defender is as tall as he.

Dude aint a 5. He's a 4.

jeb,

Not sure how much you watch Chicago but Noah is not a physical player. Do you remember how Shaq pushed him around like a rag doll in last years playoffs? He tries hard but has little thickness and strength.
I agree that Gasol is better as a 4 then a 5 and he would probably agree with us. The same is true for Amare Stoudamire. He plays the 5 well but dominates the 4 position.
If you can think of any more physical centers, I am listening.

bigpygme wrote:Bargnani gets as close as 15 feet sometimes ????? he musta got lost.

LOL, you're right.

Having Brook Lopez on my fantasy team is driving me crazy because he wants nothing to do with being under the basket...
Brook could get 10 rebounds and 2 blocks per game in his sleep if he only stayed under the basket and fought for the ball.
I love watching Kevin Love and Zach Randolph because they go after every rebound and don't take any plays off.

jeb wrote:

I watched every second of the last two Laker games and a good chunk a utah. Gasol looks frustrated to me. Kobe has been 2004 Kobe for the last few games and its hurting the team.

Jeb-


You're absolutely right about Kobe lately. He's been in serious ball hog mode. And it's been extra-noticeable because he been in the "Game 6 vs Denver '09/ Game 5 vs OKC '10" super-facilitator mode that you and I always talk about for most of this year. It's one of the reasons they started 8-0 despite playing no defense and not putting out much energy overall in any game.


And the team's lack of energy and urgency leads us back to the ball-hogging, because there's always been (or at least since Pau arrived and Fisher came back) a chicken vs egg aspect of Kobe's take-over instincts vs the team's lack of energy. When the team is lethargic, his natural instinct to take over asserts itself, but this causes a vicious cycle b/c as Kobe hogs the ball. his teammates become spectators on offense and play with even less energy overall, so they end up with games like the Lakers have played vs Indy and Memphis, both of whom are competitive teams that can't be taken lightly.


I have only seen a couple of Cs games this year, but it seems like the Lakers' and Celtics' losses have been similar this year- for the most part it's about a lack of energy/effort/ focus.

Outside of Lakers loss in Utah and Boston losing in Dallas, most of both team's losses were close games to lower-tier playoff contenders where the Lakers and Celts didn't bother to bring their A games and ended up paying for it.


It seems like both teams are bored, and I understand that. Having been at the Finals in '08, '09, and'10, I know for me there's an enormous difference in energy level sitting in Staples during the regular season vs being there for the Finals, so I can only imagine how un-excited the players are to grind through the first 82.

Hard to get pumped up for the Pacers coming to town the Sunday night after Thanksgiving. Same thing with a Sunday noon game in Toronto, since it's a great place to spend a Saturday night, with some of the best strip clubs/ nocturnal activities in the world. Not surprised by the phone-it-in efforts in either team's case.


Pau is legitimately worn down right now, as Phil keeps playing him for the entire second half of every competitive game, and you can see that he's wiped out at the end of those games. But even though Bynum's return will help with that and probably help restore some balance to the offense, I'm expecting this team to sleepwalk through most of the regular season. Wouldn't be surprised to see the Celts do the same.

Both teams know when the real season starts, and both know they can win in any building in the league, so they don't seem very worried about the race for HCA.




PS to Jeb-


How are things, buddy ? Hope you had a good Thanksgiving.


I haven't had time to post, but wandered over for 5 minutes today and saw this thread.


Hope things are going well. Will give you a call sometime soon.


BSH

If you can think of any more physical centers, I am listening.


tjmakz


What does that have to do with what we are saying?

sky

Well said as usual. If the Lakers show up are engaged and play right its a rematch in the finals. When they dont they can both be had.

Why do you think Phil is choosing to grind Pau down? To prove a point to Bynum?

Jeb, you are absolutely correct that Gasol is better at power forward than center, and you're spot on about Gasol dominating when he has a length advantage over his defender. He's 7'0 with a long wingspan, so as a PF, he has that advantage against everyone I can think of except KG, and he did pretty well against KG in last year's finals. And as a PF, I think he's very effective with his back to the basket as well; he makes rolling hooks in either direction.

As a center, he doesn't have that advantage as often. I didn't see the Indiana game, but I can see where Hibbert could give him trouble. As I mentioned previously, adding Bynum is a two-fold advantage -- beside Bynum's contributions at both ends, it also allows Gasol to play PF, where he belongs.

BTW, I think Hibbert is making a quantum leap in quality, much like Bogut did last year. (He's currently averaging 16 points, 9.5 rebounds, and 2 blocks.) I think Indiana is a below-the-radar team that could surprise some people, like Milwaukee and OKC last year. They're not deep, but if Darren Collison gets comfortable with the offense and ups his productivity and they get solid contributions from other players, I see them in the second tier of teams in the East. They're currently fifth in the conference.

Outside