Re: Brutal piece by Gerry Callahan in the Herald

by **beat** Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:29 am

celtic fan wrote:Perk - knew the system, played within himself, made the interior Def that much better as KG didn't have to do it all and most importantly was very essential to team chemistry.

Dealing him was a mistake for a shot at this years title. Anyone who can't see that needs to stop spiking their green kool-aid.

Shaq and JON have been injury prone for years now and thinking they'd both bet 85-90% ready for the playoffs was fool hardy. Having to face the Heat and Bulls on the road in back to back series will be brutal.

I don't have much faith that this team can make the finals. I hope to be proven wrong but it doesn't look good right now.

Sorry I completely disagree. Think most of us are vastly overrating a player that rarely scored 10 plus points and rarely snared 10 plus rebounds and virtually was on the bench for the final minutes of almost every close games cause he could not make free throw consistantly. And his hands were iffy at best. Yet some believe we can't possibly win without him.

So if dealing him was a mistake how the Frig did we play so well without him this season? Very well I might add!

I see no reason whatsoever that we can't win it all with what we have. And if you can't see that your not looking very hard.

beat

by **mrkleen09** Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:39 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:kleen

I don't see anyone calling him a god, fans and pundits that loved this team know what Perk brought and miss him.

cow

And if the Celtics win #18 this year....I am holding my breath for a collective mea culpa from all of them. Yeah, that and I plan to hit the lottery and be handsome and famous by the end of the year. Rolling Eyes

by **bobheckler** Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:39 am

Let me also point out that the Lakers have played like Champions after the All-Star break.

Then they had a 5 game losing streak.

Now, they lost Bynum (we don't know for how long) and they still beat the Spurs.

If we get Shaq back for 10 minutes a game, that's 10 minutes of intimidating beef at the center spot. If Ray Allen rests for a week and his legs get a few nights off and he starts raining 3s again, then our inside game (with or without Shaq) will become more effective.

Let's not call the games before they play them.

bob

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by **celtic fan** Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:48 am

Celtics played well because Shaq and JON were healthy and Rondo wasn't upset about losing his best buddy on the team.

You can't deny that the team has looked out sorts and played very inconsistently since that trade.

The teams chemistry is not what it was.

@bob, yes 99% chance we'd be facing them regardless, but having 4 home games at least in the 2nd round and without the trade potentially for the ECF's as well is a lot more appealing to me than what is more than likely to happen now.
The Heat have improved as the year went on. They're not invincible or anything silly like that, but I'd say they're more confident and have figured out who their go to guy in the crunch is (Wade most of the time, occasionally LBJ)

Facing them in Boston would be more preferable.

Then again I'm more of a expect the worst from my team and hope to be surprised type. 22 years of the Celtics make mostly bad moves that I could not get excited for (save for drafting Pierce) kinda made me that way.

by **beat** Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:49 am

bobheckler wrote:Let me also point out that the Lakers have played like Champions after the All-Star break.

Then they had a 5 game losing streak.

Now, they lost Bynum (we don't know for how long) and they still beat the Spurs.
If we get Shaq back for 10 minutes a game, that's 10 minutes of intimidating beef at the center spot. If Ray Allen rests for a week and his legs get a few nights off and he starts raining 3s again, then our inside game (with or without Shaq) will become more effective.

Let's not call the games before they play them.

bob

.

Yep they beat the Spurs "JV" team

Spurs played without DUNCAN.......MANO....PARKER & McDyess

beat

by **beat** Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:54 am

CF

Shaq did not play a lot of minutes and JO played a whole lot less. Yet we did quite well.

Think it's time to quit living in the past it's done and we need to get behind the team we do have regardless. Been a fan a long time lots of ups and downs.......thats just how it is.

I like our chances a hell of a lot more this year than last year at this time.

beat

by **MDCelticsFan** Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:09 pm

Perk was our safety net-what the security blanket was to Charlie Brown's Linus. As long a we knew he was on the way back we could endure anything-Now that Perk is gone, so is the SWAG-Now our tails we can only WAG! Based on Shaq's shaky health, Rondo living in a shell, and KG's either refusal or inability to give the C's an inside scoring presence, how can we like our chances particularly in light of increased minutes for some of the older players, and West's injury!

MD.

by **bobheckler** Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:16 pm

The first three articles here are good. The first is about the revitalization of KG. The second says that West is listed as "day to day". That's good news. The third breaks down JON's play in the Washington game. For those of us worried about our 5s, that's a good read. He backs his analysis up with youtube clips.

http://www.celticstown.com/

bob

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by **Outside** Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:28 pm

Celtic fan,

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not picking on you personally. You happen to have succinctly stated several arguments in this whole deal.

celtic fan wrote:Perk - knew the system, played within himself, made the interior Def that much better as KG didn't have to do it all and most importantly was very essential to team chemistry.

This states Perk's upside well. I'd say most everyone agrees with putting these on the "plus" side of Perk's ledger.

celtic fan wrote:Dealing him was a mistake for a shot at this years title. Anyone who can't see that needs to stop spiking their green kool-aid.

Ah, this part is not clear in the least. First, we don't know how well this year's team is going to do in the playoffs considering that they haven't even started yet. There are numerous examples of a team's performance at the end of the regular season not being a reliable indicator of how that team will perform in the playoffs. Second, we don't know (and never will) how the Celtics would've performed if they hadn't done the trade. Your argument that they would've won or at least performed better is another assumption that some of us aren't willing to make. You're certainly allowed to have that opinion, but stating that opinion as a certainty is incorrect when one half of the equation (how well the post-trade Celtics will perform in the playoffs) has yet to be determined and the other half (how well the no-trade Celtics would've performed) will never be known.

celtic fan wrote:Shaq and JON have been injury prone for years now and thinking they'd both bet 85-90% ready for the playoffs was fool hardy. Having to face the Heat and Bulls on the road in back to back series will be brutal.

Welcome to life as an NBA general manager. It involves calculated risk. Opportunities have short windows, and decisions must be made based on the information you have at that time, not based on hindsight down the road. Even with the hindsight available to this point, I'd still agree with the Perkins trade. The one transaction I disagreed with at the time was sending Erden to the Cavs since he would've provided an extra measure of insurance at center, but he's barely played at Cleveland, so maybe Danny knew something about Erden's health (I can't find anything definitive about Erden having an injury, though he had trouble with his shoulder earlier in the season).

For a general manager, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you make a deal, a lot of people aren't going to like it. If you don't make a deal, you're blamed for not taking chances and doing what's necessary to improve the team. So you talk it over with your inner circle of basketball people, consider all the factors, and make a decision, all while the clock is ticking. Most proposed deals are never done, but if you sit back and wait for foolproof trades to come along, you'll be looking for another job.

celtic fan wrote:I don't have much faith that this team can make the finals. I hope to be proven wrong but it doesn't look good right now.

This is the part I have the hardest time figuring out. You're a Celtic fan. You're supposed to have faith in your team. This sounds like something a Cubs fan would say, or a Cleveland fan, someone beat down by year after year of failure and disappointment. This team has been to the finals two out of the last three years, and you don't have much faith that they can make the finals???

The only other teams with any realistic chance of winning the East are Chicago and Miami. They're very good, but I can think of very good reasons why they won't win it.

Chicago has won exactly one playoff series since the Michael Jordan era, in 2007, and only one player from that team is still on the roster (Luol Deng). They are highly dependent on the performance of one player, Derrick Rose, which makes them highly susceptible to losing if that player doesn't excel. Playoff history is filled with examples of coaches who figured out how to stop an outstanding player from doing all the things he did during the regular season. Doc is a bright guy and an experienced coach. If I was a Celtic fan, I think I'd have faith that he can figure out a way to contain Rose. The Bulls have other good players (plus an experienced, capable coach), and containing Rose isn't a guarantee of playoff victory, but if I were a Celtic fan, I'd like those odds, especially against a team that doesn't have a history of playoff success to fall back on.

Miami poses different challenges, but they are not insurmountable. The Heat have shown they are a Jekyll/Hyde team, and I'd put my money on Doc figuring out how to turn them into the Bad Heat and Spoelstra not figuring out how to counter. What's most telling to me are the statements that have come from the Heat at various times during the season that this will take time and it will be a season or two before they get it all figured out. I think they are mentally fragile and may fold as a team if faced with a resolute, capable challenger.

Now let's talk about what the Celtics bring to the party. Experience - check. Recent playoff success - check. Coaching - check. A variety of offensive weapons, minimizing the danger of being shut down as a team if one player doesn't excel - check. If I were a Celtic fan, I'd like that list.

Is everything rosy for the Celtics heading into the playoffs? Of course not. But I cannot understand losing faith because Kendrick Perkins is gone. To me, that's losing faith in KG, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rajon Rondo, and Doc Rivers. That's losing faith in Celtic tradition. Was Kendrick Perkins the unrecognized keystone of the franchise, so that the entire team falls apart like a house of cards because he's not there? Perk has many admirable qualities, but I'd say that believing there's little reason to hope because he's gone is overstating the case dramatically.

Again, Celtic fan, I'm not picking on you personally. You haven't been the foremost "all is lost because Perk is gone" voice (in fact, this may your first post stating your concern, and you've been a rational, considered contributor to the board). As I said before, you happened to present the argument in a concise, coherent way, which is probably why several people chose to respond to your post. I understand the reason for concern, I really do. But as a Celtic fan, I think you're more justified in taking a leap of faith, not a leap off a cliff.

Outside

by **NYCelt** Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:41 pm

Outside,

Great post.

Reasoned, realistic and well thought out as usual.

I'll of course reserve the right to question your reasoning for those times your opinion differs from mine!

Regards

by **MDCelticsFan** Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:47 pm

Outside: After dropping the 7th game to LA, it was widely lamented that Perk's absence, and the disparity in free throw totals were our real undoing in that series. Now you break up Jake & Elwood, and for what? We've become softer with our interior defense, it's toughness was our trademark calling card for the last few years. The band should have been left intact. The new pieces are having problems fitting in and now our offense seems even more anemic than before. Rondo's in a turtle sized shell and I know he went to Kentucky, not Maryland. Prospects for a long playoff run appear dim to me. I wouldn't mind being wrong!

MD.

by **bobheckler** Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:00 pm

outside,

The voice of reason strikes again!

Good for you.

bob

.

by **steve3344** Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:08 pm

bobheckler wrote:I say "GOOD!". I hope more writers dump on them.

Maybe it'll fire them up. Maybe it'll make them get their wagons in a circle and develop more comaraderie and chemistry. Maybe it'll anger them and want them to "show the world".

Bottom line, though, is that I don't think any of these articles and rants by writers and talk show hosts will actually have a negative impact on the players or coaches. None whatsoever. They're professionals, they've made it to the mountaintop before and they limped into the playoffs last year too. Our playoff seeding this year is better than it was last year.

They sure seem to have an impact on the psyche of us amateurs though, don't they?

bob

.

Last year we were the home team in round one, the road team in rounds two, three and four.
This year we'll be the home team in round one, the road team in rounds two, three and four. Barring upsets.
Ending #4 last year and being slightly better at #3 this year will not improve our playoff seeding.

by **steve3344** Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:13 pm

bobheckler wrote:Let me also point out that the Lakers have played like Champions after the All-Star break.

Then they had a 5 game losing streak.

Now, they lost Bynum (we don't know for how long) and they still beat the Spurs.

If we get Shaq back for 10 minutes a game, that's 10 minutes of intimidating beef at the center spot. If Ray Allen rests for a week and his legs get a few nights off and he starts raining 3s again, then our inside game (with or without Shaq) will become more effective.

Let's not call the games before they play them.

bob

.

by **beat** Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:25 pm

steve3344 wrote:
bobheckler wrote:I say "GOOD!". I hope more writers dump on them.

Maybe it'll fire them up. Maybe it'll make them get their wagons in a circle and develop more comaraderie and chemistry. Maybe it'll anger them and want them to "show the world".

Bottom line, though, is that I don't think any of these articles and rants by writers and talk show hosts will actually have a negative impact on the players or coaches. None whatsoever. They're professionals, they've made it to the mountaintop before and they limped into the playoffs last year too. Our playoff seeding this year is better than it was last year.

They sure seem to have an impact on the psyche of us amateurs though, don't they?

bob

.

Last year we were the home team in round one, the road team in rounds two, three and four.
This year we'll be the home team in round one, the road team in rounds two, three and four. Barring upsets.
Ending #4 last year and being slightly better at #3 this year will not improve our playoff seeding.

Steve

# 3 vs # 4

Just to point out the obvious but it DOES improve it in the fact we dont play the #1 seed in the second round. and of course as you say this is barring the unexpected upsets

beat

by **steve3344** Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:50 pm

beat wrote:
steve3344 wrote:
bobheckler wrote:I say "GOOD!". I hope more writers dump on them.

Maybe it'll fire them up. Maybe it'll make them get their wagons in a circle and develop more comaraderie and chemistry. Maybe it'll anger them and want them to "show the world".

Bottom line, though, is that I don't think any of these articles and rants by writers and talk show hosts will actually have a negative impact on the players or coaches. None whatsoever. They're professionals, they've made it to the mountaintop before and they limped into the playoffs last year too. Our playoff seeding this year is better than it was last year.

They sure seem to have an impact on the psyche of us amateurs though, don't they?

bob

.

Last year we were the home team in round one, the road team in rounds two, three and four.
This year we'll be the home team in round one, the road team in rounds two, three and four. Barring upsets.
Ending #4 last year and being slightly better at #3 this year will not improve our playoff seeding.

Steve

# 3 vs # 4

Just to point out the obvious but it DOES improve it in the fact we dont play the #1 seed in the second round. and of course as you say this is barring the unexpected upsets

beat

But we still gotta play 'em. And on the road. Doesn't matter when. And when they're on their game (as we witnessed in the past week) there's very little difference to playing the Heat or Bulls.

by **beat** Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:00 pm

Steve

Regarding the first 2 games.........
The case of stealing one on the road VS holding serve at home might present some interesting stats................but as we all know if it gets to 7 we ARE on the road.

Of course in the finals it's 2-3-2 not 2-2-1-1-1 as it is in the earlier rounds. And our key is there are NO back to kcabs

beat

by **Sam** Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:11 pm

Beat,

Just want to let you know that your "back to kcab" comment was noticed and appreciated.

Sam

by **beat** Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:14 pm

Sam

AND for once it was NOT a opyt! (typo)

beat

by **Outside** Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:03 pm

MD,

It isn't reasonable to say that everything looks great and that victory is assured, but it's equally unreasonable to take a completely pessimistic view. What I don't understand is why, as a Celtic fan, you have so little faith in the team's chances given their performance the past three postseasons. It would seem that a fan would err on the side of hope, especially given the recent success they've had in the playoffs, and especially considering they've bounced back impressively from poor games and even poor stretches of games.

In 2008, the Celtics were underwhelming through three playoff rounds, going the full seven games against the lowly Hawks and middling Cavs, then six games against the Pistons, who were at the end of their run. Many Celtic fans took offense that the majority of media experts picked the Lakers in the finals, but really, the Celtics hadn't been impressive in the playoffs to that point. Yet they stepped up to the challenge and won the title.

In 2009, despite losing KG and then Leon Powe for the playoffs, the Celtics won an epic series against the Bulls and led 3-2 against Orlando before falling in the conference semifinals.

In 2010, despite finishing the season 27-27, they made it to the finals again and came achingly close to winning it all.

Each of these teams faced adversity and played at times in a way that didn't inspire confidence, yet each was worthy of fans investing their faith in them. The 2009 team, despite being the only one of the three that didn't make the finals, is my favorite of the three, and I think Celtic fans can be proud of the performance of all of them.

Why is it that I, as a non-Celtic fan, can see many reasons to think they might do well in these playoffs, while you, a Celtic fan, don't? Unfortunately, you've demonstrated a history to focus on the most recent setback and assume that all is lost.

After the Celtics lost game 1 against the Cavs (Celtics/Cavs game #1, May 5).

MDCelticsFan wrote:The handwriting is on the wall. The team reverted to the mid season form of disappearing in the 3rd quarter and got outscored 59-38 is the second half. That reflects anything but clutch performance and shows a lack of poise. James does get away with much physical play, but he does this vs the rest of the league too. Mo Williams hurt the C's even more than James and busted the flood gates open almost single handed. Shelden Williams needs to play over 'Sheed. 'Sheed loved by the post office, since he always mails it in. Too bad management saw fit to get rid of players with guts & grit like Powe & House. Nate Robinson rides the pine, 'Quis is little used. Poor persoonel decisions by Ainge, poor perssonel management by Doc. As long as things progress this way, the C's are over matched.-MD!

During the game on thread during game 4 of the Cavs series (Game On! vs. the Cleveland Cavaliers - May 09, 2010 - Game 4 Semifinals)

MDCelticsFan wrote:Doc not using everyone to their potential, and some not at all will prove to be disaster for the C's

Before game 6 against Orlando (Doc Rivers: Hard to Figure!)

MDCelticsFan wrote:The guy gets fired several years ago from the Orlando Magic, and yet he keeps his home and family there. Now coaching Boston against the organization that fired him, he is unable to get his team motivated or prepared enough to close out the Magic. Maybe there's too much Magic for the Celts to deal with. Magic with the Lakers was hard to deal with, now Dwight Howard's Physical (Does he listen to Olivia Newton John) brand of Magic has the Celtics teetering on the ledge ready to do a Bruin-like toople akin to Humpty Dumpty. If I were Rivers, I's want to be as far away from Orlando as possible. You couldn't give me tickets to Disney World. Four straight close out games vs. the Magic dating back to last year and the C's can't seal the deal on any occasion. Davis and Daniels shouldn't play due to the concussions for their own safety. I think now it's evident that with no hard nosed enforcers like Posey and Powe off the bench, this year's team falls short of the '07-'08 title team. That team would know how to respond to Howard's intimidation. Howard's not doing anything Shaq hasn't done when he was in his prime. Looks like fumbling away game 4 will prove very costly for the Celtics. The fans, players, coaches and front office of the Celtics won't realize just how costly until just before midnight Sunday May 30th, after Game 7.

MDCelticsFan wrote:Sam, I'd never dispute your facts and figures supporting the duration of past Celtic playoff series and the (compared to today) less than ideal circumstances for scheduling and travel. The results and titles stand for themselves. Based on the turn of events since Game 4 which includes the awakening of many of the Magic players, and the deterioration of team play of the C's coupled with the physical maladies of the team now, my head tells me the collapse is imminate. My heart simply hopes my reasoning and assessment of the current situation is wrong-Leap of Faith to me was an old Steve Martin, Debra Winger movie from the 90's-MD.

After game 6 against Orlando (TONIGHT WAS NEVER IN DOUBT CELTIC "D" PARTY!!!!!!!)

MDCelticsFan wrote:I had serious doubts about the Celtics being able to pull this game out based on the physical ailments of certain key players and the apparent shift in momentum in favor of the Magic. I have no idea how much is left in the tank for the next series or how quickly Rondo, Wallace, Davis & Daniels will be able to recover from injury. Nate Robinson was huge in the 2 nd quarter and Pierece & Ray came through in the second half. I was glad to be wrong about what I thought was going to happen and gladly accept all the "I Told You So's" aimed in my direction-MD.

Before game 7 in the finals (The Glass Half Full or Half Empty)

MDCelticsFan wrote:To me, the glass looks half empty. With Perkins injured now, and Bryant is smelling the finish line, it appears there is no gas left in the tank. That's not their (C's) fault. The Celts gave this a run much along the lines the '87 team did in losing to the Lakers in The Finals. Celtics may not wind up with more points than LA tomorrow night, but I applaud the effort this team has shown. Look for guns blazin' tomorrow night. Like Tony said in "Scarface", "Say Hello to my little friend." Getting though Wade, James & Howard has taken a ton of energy out of this team. The Lakers had a far easier road so they have more gas left (not from burritos) in the tank. It will take divine intervention to sway the outcome. At TD Garden, maybe we'd have a leprechan on the rim at a critical juncture. In LA LA land, I doubt it.-MD!

In each of these cases, the Celtics came back to win the series or (in the case of game 7 against the Lakers) certainly showed they were a team to have faith in.

It's not my intention to bash you. You have plenty of posts where you praise the team, and it's apparent by reading them that you're a devoted fan. But I encourage you to avoid falling too low after a defeat or poor play, of not having hope when there is clearly reason to be hopeful. There are no guarantees, and I cannot unequivocally state that the Celtics will do well in this year's playoffs. But look at all these times in just last year's playoffs when you assumed the worst but your fears were not justified. Have hope in your team. They deserve it.

Outside

by **mrkleen09** Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:15 pm

Well said Outside.

MD is a good person and a great Celtics fan. But his sky is falling act is wearing thin.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:34 pm

gerry callahan is no more a Celtic lover than the man in the moon. He just thrives on writing articles like this and causing a major ruckus. If anyone really has read him or listened to him, you would know what I mean.

As far as Dan Shaunessey is concerned, he has said all along that he hated this trade, I will give him that. However, he is also a very cynical writer who thinks he knows more about the team than its President. Do you honestly think that Wyc and Pags let Danny make this trade without their total approval? Who knows, they sign the paychecks, maybe it was their decision to get rid of Perk now and get something for him. Whatever it is, it is! I am tired of this subject being belabored in the press constantly. Everyone is an expert. Let's see where they are when the Celtics win!

by **MDCelticsFan** Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:41 pm

Outside:

Geez that took a lot of research to pull up past posts of mine. Kudos to you on your efforts, and a hearty thanks for your carefully constructed points that you made. I guess I just expect the worst in life too many times and am relieved when on those occasions it fails to materialize. It's difficult to accept that when this core group of players was brought together 4 years ago that due to injuries and unforseen circumstances this group may go out with only one title while Bryant and the Lakers roll on unabaded. Thanks for caring enough to make your case. Many of your points really do give food for thought. May God's peace and blessing be with you and yours

MD.

by **Sam** Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:45 pm

Outside, thanks for helping to calm the waters on the board. It's one thing to have a negative position, which we all have frequently. I register negative opinions several times on almost every game-on thread, as well as in other posting.

But it's another thing for some people to keep haranguing away at that doomsday position as though they feel saying it 150 times makes it more valid. Frankly, all that does is to register lack of confidence in their own opinions, suggest that they have an agenda of negativity, and lower their credibility on the board. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It has everything to do with the unfortunate consequences of how they use that freedom.

Sam

by **MDCelticsFan** Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:30 pm

Hey Sam:

If I drink a powdered breakfast drink, does that make a a harang-a-TANG?

MD.

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