Those big bad paid off refs...

beat wrote:Mrkleen

here is an interesting read!

http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/32212253

beat

PS: some of the comments are cute!

Great article.

Bottom line here is this.

The NBA has a MAJOR public relations issue right now, and it is NOT just with Celtics fans. This is buzzing all over the national media, national commentators, interviews with former players - the list goes on and on.

I have said before and will say again. I dont think the NBA is fixing games. But I do think the league has a different set of rules for certain players and certain teams - and this calls into question the integrity of the game and the refs specifically. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....well then you tell me.

David Stern needs to step down, they need to CLEAN HOUSE with all of those old, shady, stubborn refs (starting with Joey Crawford) and they need to turn the page.

Perception is reality.

The NBA has dismissed/forced into retirement MANY of the old-time refs over the last 3 years.

Stars in every sport get calls.
A star pitcher is going to get the outside of the strike zone but a younger pitcher won't get the same considerations.

The referees do have different rules for different players. I have no problem with that as long as it is reasobnable. The referees are tough against those they should be (Artest, Rasheed Wallace) and should be more lenient against some of the good guys in the league (Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Grant Hill.)

The referees are human and are affected by how they are treated by players and coaches.

After the Donaghy gambling, you'd have thought that the NBA would have tried to show to be more transparent when it comes to refs. They'd try to show us that refs would be held accountable for their flaws. Instead, we see the opposite happen. Refs become infallible. Players couldn't say a thing w/o getting T'd.

At the same time, we saw in the NFL and MLB do the opposite. MLB umpires are held accountable. If they make egregious mistakes, they get suspended. Heck, even the strike zone for umps are rated. Players have input on who they think are the best umps. It's gone almost too far with MLB. The NFL similarly keeps their refs accountable and work to improve what they do. I've no problem with what I'm seeing from the NFL or MLB will officiating. With the NBA, it's getting to the point where games are just random. I do think it's effecting my interest in the sport which is too bad because basketball has always been my favorite to watch (our Celtics) and my favorite to play.

tjmakz wrote:What is going on among many Celtics fans is not just complaining about referees. It has moved into referees fixing games. Referees having an agenda. Direction coming down from Stern about what teams should win and in how many games. Many Celtics fans have openly questioned the personal integrity of referees and David Stern.

The NBA is easily the hardest professional sport to referee.
With the amount of flopping that goes on from when guys drive through the lane and from when defensive players take charges, the referees are probably having a hard time deciding what is real and what is fake.

Even though the NBA is my favorite sport and I consider myself an NBA junkie, if I truly felt the NBA was fixed, I would walk away from the sport.

TJ, I noticed you put in "among many Celtic fans". If you will go back, NY complained about this, Indiana, which I paid more attention to was sick. Lebron 4 fouls in 6 games. I don't think its just the Celtic fans that are complaining. I live close to Dallas. Believe me fans around here who basically despise the Celtics will tell you the same thing Celtic fans are complaining about. Fixed? I doubt it. Overboard superstar treatment- definitely. Actually I like the officiating better when we had replacement refs. They called traveling on people like Kobe that pivots and moves his feet 4 feet during his pivot action, and the announcers say its great footwork. They called palming on players, they called traveling. Superstars were basically reffed just like the others. I am not sure but I think your a Laker fan so I apoligize about pointing Kobe out, but its simply a fact. I have DVRed many of games and I have watched him pivot back and forth from the free throw line and by the time he is finished both feet are behind the 3 pt arch. I find calls like this nothing other than letting superstars do things other players don't get to do.

The game will become uninteresting for me to watch if I start assuming it is rigged by the league.

So I will stop at "bad calls" (which happens in both directions usually) and not going into larger conspiracy.

On Wades "kick" it seems to be a part of his shooting motion, sort of like Griffin has this habit of pushing away/down with his left hand. He has similar plays where he kicks the defender.

When it comes to Pierces last foul it probably should not have been called but it is not a catastrophic call that it was. Some of Pierces earlier fouls where more questionable as in "no calls" and I do not understand how Lebron manages to stay out of all those calls (if they are called equally that is), not saying that it is rigged but it is amazing how he never fouls (or get fouls called).

If one wanted to rig the game it would be very easy without even making up calls, just call everything very strict on one side and not on the other. Do not have to make up calls or really cover them up.

Also if one did that and created and early FT disparity it would lead to one team being down and having to take more chances in their plays (to catch up), even if you equal up the disparity later they have still had to take more threes (to catch up), have people foul out/get in foul trouble and so on.

KyleCleric wrote:After the Donaghy gambling, you'd have thought that the NBA would have tried to show to be more transparent when it comes to refs. They'd try to show us that refs would be held accountable for their flaws. Instead, we see the opposite happen. Refs become infallible. Players couldn't say a thing w/o getting T'd.

At the same time, we saw in the NFL and MLB do the opposite. MLB umpires are held accountable. If they make egregious mistakes, they get suspended. Heck, even the strike zone for umps are rated. Players have input on who they think are the best umps. It's gone almost too far with MLB. The NFL similarly keeps their refs accountable and work to improve what they do. I've no problem with what I'm seeing from the NFL or MLB will officiating. With the NBA, it's getting to the point where games are just random. I do think it's effecting my interest in the sport which is too bad because basketball has always been my favorite to watch (our Celtics) and my favorite to play.

This is a great post Kyle. Spot on.

mrkleen09 wrote:

beat wrote:Mrkleen

here is an interesting read!

http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/32212253

beat

PS: some of the comments are cute!

Great article.

Bottom line here is this.

The NBA has a MAJOR public relations issue right now, and it is NOT just with Celtics fans. This is buzzing all over the national media, national commentators, interviews with former players - the list goes on and on.

I have said before and will say again. I dont think the NBA is fixing games. But I do think the league has a different set of rules for certain players and certain teams - and this calls into question the integrity of the game and the refs specifically. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....well then you tell me.

David Stern needs to step down, they need to CLEAN HOUSE with all of those old, shady, stubborn refs (starting with Joey Crawford) and they need to turn the page.

Perception is reality.

I couldn't agree with you more on this whole post.

NYCelt,

Good points, as usual. And the rationale goes even further than the fact that the more aggressive team is likely to be awarded more free throws. The more aggressive team is also more likely to be given the benefit of the doubt in nearly all phases of the game.

Just one example. If a member of a very aggressive team complains about a call, human nature means that refs may tend to reason that the complaint is an understandable outgrowth of the effort the complaining team is exerting. If a member of a team that's standing around a lot complains about a call, human nature means that refs may tend to interpret the complaint as whining by a team that's losing the game of effort.

I'm not talking about what is the "letter of the law" here. I'm talking about human nature. If anyone doesn't like it, (s)he look upward and take it up with whoever created the concept of human nature. If a cop stops a speeder, human nature enters into the cop's decision as to whether to give the offender a warning or a ticket. And yet, isn't a cop supposed to be as objective as an NBA ref, who (by the way) is forced into instantaneous, subjective, knee-jerk reactions more than a cop, with his radar, and his wants and warrants, is?

It's also human nature that fans whose team appears to be getting the short end of the officiating stick would be unhappy. It's human nature that they would want to complain. The media encourages such thinking as an outgrowth of the "easy news" concept that I've talked about repeatedly. And there's no question that delving into the arena of conspiracy theory can be titillating.

Personally, I haven't any more time for griping or theorizing about conspiracies than the players have. They're focusing on the immediate future and matters they have a chance to control. Their resolve may be strengthened by memories of dubious calls or non-calls in the past; and, if so, I hope their resolve is trending in the direction of greater aggressiveness rather than complaining. But, by and large, every fiber of their beings should be focused on trying harder in Game Three. I know that every fiber of my "basketball being" is focused on rooting for more aggressiveness on the part of the Celtics and not being preoccupied by the artifacts of human nature which earthly beings have little-to-no chance of changing.

And, for those who would challenge what I say by reminding me that Rondo was extremely aggressive in Game Two, don't bother. I already know that. But I didn't think the entire team exuded physical aggressiveness to the extent the Heat did. I'm not really criticizing the Celtics, because I fully recognize that—considering their fatigue and injuries—they may have given their very best. But the referees can't be blamed if the Celtics' very best didn't duplicate or exceed the team-wide aggressiveness displayed by the Heat.

As recently as 2008, the Celtics have traditionally entered the playoffs prepared for all-out war. Very often, their opponents were prepared more for battles than for outright war. The difference often resulted in Celtics championships.

So far, in this series, I'm concerned that the positions may be reversed. And the referees can't be expected to handicap the situation and give the Celtics breaks just because the Celtics War Room is bereft of important resources.

This doesn't mean I'm giving up on the Celtics. Far from it. It's just that I'd rather focus my energy on the next game rather than extraneous matters, regardless of how titillating they may be. And I respect the rights of others to have perspectives at variance from mine.

As for the quality of officiating in general, that's arguably a different matter from a potential bias against the Celtics. I feel there should be much better standardization of rules (a) by each ref, (b) among various refs, and even (c) throughout the season. I believe there should be much more stringent reviews of refs' performances (although I'm not aware of specifically what is done now). But that's for the off-season as far as I'm concerned. As fare as I'm concerned, now is the time to immerse myself in the action on the court. And, regardless of what changes might come about, I firmly doubt that the matter of human nature will never change.

Go Celtics! Focus, focus, focus!

Sam

tardust wrote:

tjmakz wrote:What is going on among many Celtics fans is not just complaining about referees. It has moved into referees fixing games. Referees having an agenda. Direction coming down from Stern about what teams should win and in how many games. Many Celtics fans have openly questioned the personal integrity of referees and David Stern.

The NBA is easily the hardest professional sport to referee.
With the amount of flopping that goes on from when guys drive through the lane and from when defensive players take charges, the referees are probably having a hard time deciding what is real and what is fake.

Even though the NBA is my favorite sport and I consider myself an NBA junkie, if I truly felt the NBA was fixed, I would walk away from the sport.

TJ, I noticed you put in "among many Celtic fans". If you will go back, NY complained about this, Indiana, which I paid more attention to was sick. Lebron 4 fouls in 6 games. I don't think its just the Celtic fans that are complaining. I live close to Dallas. Believe me fans around here who basically despise the Celtics will tell you the same thing Celtic fans are complaining about. Fixed? I doubt it. Overboard superstar treatment- definitely. Actually I like the officiating better when we had replacement refs. They called traveling on people like Kobe that pivots and moves his feet 4 feet during his pivot action, and the announcers say its great footwork. They called palming on players, they called traveling. Superstars were basically reffed just like the others. I am not sure but I think your a Laker fan so I apoligize about pointing Kobe out, but its simply a fact. I have DVRed many of games and I have watched him pivot back and forth from the free throw line and by the time he is finished both feet are behind the 3 pt arch. I find calls like this nothing other than letting superstars do things other players don't get to do.

If you feel Kobe moves or switches his pivot foot and it is never called is that Kobe's fault?
Boston has been loaded with superstars the last 5 years, why would you care about superstar treatment?
Or is it that you feel your teams players are not getting superstar treatment?
The NBA is as popular as they have ever have been.
Despite the lockout, TV ratings were up 25-30% this year.
The league is very healthy other then a few teams that can't support themselves.

I do think the NBA and MLB needs to use more replay. Just get the calls right.
Not that they should review every charge/block call but for out of bounds plays, there should be a review or a challenge available to coaches.
The play when Rondo was hit in the head cannot be reviewed because the game kept going.

Speaking of reviewed plays!

Rondo had a three that was ruled a two after review because his right foot was on the line.

It looked to me like the right foot was off the floor before the left though making his "last point of contact" being behind the line.

For the sake of the question lets assume that it was so (left foot left floor after right) should it be a 3 or a 2?

I just had what I thought was a semi-coherent post wiped out before I could hit send by my office IT guy goofing with the server.

Shorthand was that I was going to make my prior post my last in this thread. However, I find it ironic that I'm in complete agreement with a couple of our resident non-Celtic fans. While, like anyone, I'm humbled when someone like Outside sees fit to spend significant time and energy on a post backing my opinion, I find it interesting that he's also the one pointing out how Bill Russell looks at this type of event. The man claims to be a fan of basketball in general rather than the Celtics in particular, yet he has to be the one to point up how our most iconic figure sees a topic like this!

I started this topic for precisely the thought Outside recounted. I find it an embarrassment the way many Celtic fans are carrying on. This is not the way a champion plays it and is, in my opinion, a poor reflection on a legendary team's equally legendary fans.

Regards

Edit; I see that while I wrote this after outside and kleens posts there were several others. If this seems to ignore anything that was said, my apologies, but my IT guy is about to zap me again (I need to remind him what he cost me last year)!

NYCelt wrote: I find it an embarrassment the way many Celtic fans are carrying on. This is not the way a champion plays it and is, in my opinion, a poor reflection on a legendary team's equally legendary fans.

Are you also embarrassed by Danny Ainge who waited for the head of officials in the hallway after the game?

How about Doc Rivers said it was a disgrace and Rondo who said it was obvious what was happening?

Donny Marshall and Tommy were livid about it. Are they am embarrassment as well?

What about the writers from Yahoo, Sports Illustrated, ESPN, Hoops Hype, Bleacher Report, Boston Globe, Boston Herald have all called into question what is going on. Are they all on a mission to discredit the Celtics legacy?

Give me a break.

Sinus,

One of the problems is that some Celtics fans are complaining about every call and not looking at this objectivly.
1) They say KG shouldn't have received a T in game 1. Yes he should have.
2) They say Rondo should not have received a T in game 1. Yes he should have.
3) The foul called on KG when Wade drove through the lane was a foul against KG.
4) Who are we to say Doc didn't deserve a T for something else earlier in the game and he finally got it when he said "Come On Ed"?
5) Rondo should have been called for a foul when he undercut LeBron who was closest to the ball.

To me here are the questionable or wrong calls:
1) Ray did not deserve a T even though he jumped in the air.
2) Wade did foul Rondo on his drive to the basket.
3) KG did hit the ball out of bounds in game 2 but they gave it to Boston.
4) Pierce's 6th foul was either a foul on Pierce or a non-call. It's hard to have a non-call with significant contact.

NYCelt wrote:I just had what I thought was a semi-coherent post wiped out before I could hit send by my office IT guy goofing with the server.

Shorthand was that I was going to make my prior post my last in this thread. However, I find it ironic that I'm in complete agreement with a couple of our resident non-Celtic fans. While, like anyone, I'm humbled when someone like Outside sees fit to spend significant time and energy on a post backing my opinion, I find it interesting that he's also the one pointing out how Bill Russell looks at this type of event. The man claims to be a fan of basketball in general rather than the Celtics in particular, yet he has to be the one to point up how our most iconic figure sees a topic like this!

I started this topic for precisely the thought Outside recounted. I find it an embarrassment the way many Celtic fans are carrying on. This is not the way a champion plays it and is, in my opinion, a poor reflection on a legendary team's equally legendary fans.

Regards

Edit; I see that while I wrote this after outside and kleens posts there were several others. If this seems to ignore anything that was said, my apologies, but my IT guy is about to zap me again (I need to remind him what he cost me last year)!

I disagree.

This doesn't poorly reflect on Celtics fans. This shows the passion they have for the Celtics. The great thing about forums is that it gives an outlet for the frustration that we all have when our team loses. If we see the refs as a source of frustration, expressing that in a respectful way on a forum like I'm seeing here is the best way to express those feelings. If anything it reflects well on Celtics fans.

This does not reflect well on Celtics fans.
It seems like it hasn't stopped from game 7 of the 2010 Finals.

Has anyone ever tried to listen to Tommy objectively?
He has morphed into someone who is basically laughed at from people who are not Celtics fans because of his constant complaining about the referees.

tjmakz wrote:This does not reflect well on Celtics fans.
It seems like it hasn't stopped from game 7 of the 2010 Finals.

Has anyone ever tried to listen to Tommy objectively?
He has morphed into someone who is basically laughed at from people who are not Celtics fans because of his constant complaining about the referees.

Tommy has been complaining about refs for 50 years. Thank god though that he stopped coaching when he did because I have doubts that he'd have made it long in the Bird years if he continued. The Tommy that that complains as an announcer can't touch the one that complained as a coach.

With that said, I'm grateful to have the team we currently have announcing games. Few people offer as much history and knowledge of the game as Tommy Heinsohn, and nobody does it better than the respectful, insightful, understated Mike Gorman. Greg and Donny can come, too. As opposed to the Remy/Orsillo happy talk or neutral/boring NFL broadcasts.

tjmakz wrote:This does not reflect well on Celtics fans.
It seems like it hasn't stopped from game 7 of the 2010 Finals.

Has anyone ever tried to listen to Tommy objectively?
He has morphed into someone who is basically laughed at from people who are not Celtics fans because of his constant complaining about the referees.

Tommy has forgotten more about basketball than ANYONE ever associated with the Lakers. Period. Full Stop.

If some of you guys took your head out of the sand you would see that what Kyle said in his first post is spot on. It is not about specific calls (the fact that list them off TJ shows just how much you are MISSING THE POINT), it is about the lack of transparency and the infallible attitude of Stern and the NBA refs.

If Ray Allen, one of the most universally respected gentleman in professional sports can make a face after a tough call without getting a T - then there is a problem. The Refs egos are out of check and that is a DIRECT RESULT of David Stern and his shady regime.

This same discussion is happening on message board and in the media across the country. Has absolutely nothign to do with this being a Celtics message board. It has to do with it being an NBA fan message board.

mrkleen

just a few rambling thoughts............

Many times in the County I work people will end up going to the local town "justice" due to a less than felony charge. Many times in these small towns the local justice knows of the person or his family as the towns are just not that big. So they are left to "judge" a case or sentence a defendant once a plea is reached. I have seen many of these cases where the defense attorney or the judge himself recluse himself from the proceedings so as not to give the impression of being impartial one way or the other or due to a conflict of interest. This happens in the County and City Court levels as well as the courts want to not even give the perception of not being impartial. neutral fair, call it what you want. They do not wish to have a "conflict of Interest."

Seems to me that not only when Judgement is a nessicary requirement for a job like reffing a basketball game and you allow people with the judgement displayed by them and the money involved your casting a very poor perception on the game. If their judgement is that poor why are the allowed to continue to ref?

If I am a local Judge and a kid comes into Court with a speeding ticket and I fine him $100. and another kid that beat up my son in 6th grade comes in with the same type of speeding ticket and I fine him $200 is that being impartial?

This said how refs are graded should be made public in some way shape or form. There is a web site I have looked at that graded the Major League baseball home plate umps and showed a visual account of their ball/strike calls. It was quite revealing when you compared the ALL STAR soon to be HOF pitcher vs the rookie. The rookie actually had to throw a strike and even THEN it was missed too often. Gerg Maddox missed the plate by 3-4 inches consistantly on that outside corner yet more times than not he got the call. How is that fair to the batter who has maybe a <25% chance of getting a hit of Maddox on a ball that is on that corner?

The perception of the NBA is poor, and as you say it ain't just us bitchin about it.

I do tend to agree with the comment that of the professional sports, the NBA is perhaps the most difficult. Well why is that?

My belief is that is has been allowed to become that way when officials are not just looking at the play to make the call, they are also looking at the name on the back of the jersey.

The point made by Outside about not letting a call or two affect the outcome is fine on the surface. But when you play hard and tough even though you are at a disadvantage but have stayed in the game and managed to keep it close, and then a terrible late call/non-call gives you little to no chance to overcome is a bit tough to swallow.

Probably a questionable comparison but a couple weeks ago my son dropped a popup late in the game (7th and final inning) that eventually allowed the winning run to score. I had to supply the coach with some game info after the game and by the time I go to the car Marcus was yelling at his mother. Something like "I cost us the $%^&* game!."

I let him ride home with his cousin as he needed to blow off some steam. When his mom and I got in the car she said other kids made errors and struck out, that he did not cost us the game. I basically told he, sorry but the reality is he did. He has to catch that pop up. An error in the first couple innings may let a run or 2 in but you have time to fight back and overcome that. We had no chance to overcome his error.

The C's had really no time, nor chance to come back from that bad non call against Rondo. Would we be bitchin quite as much if it had happened late in the first period? I sort of doubt it.

Think we would all love to have a game where officals sort of just blend in and when it's over we can talk about what a great game it was but when the perception is so far from being able to do that due to the way the League has allowed refs to ref with no apparent accounting when they screw up.

I went into this series knowing we had very little chance of advancing and hoping to somehow win a couple games and make it interestng at the least. We are NOT done yet but in all likelyhood the reality of the situation is that we are. If it were 1-1 and we had pulled out that game 2 win which if the late foul call on Rondo was made correctly we very well would have, there would be a whole lot less bitching on here about the refs.

I to don't believe on any great fix or conspiracy however the league seems to do nothing to dispell these beliefs by not addressing the incompetent officals and benching/suspending them when they "blow" it.

anyway I have rambled on enough..... hoping for a win but not putting the ranch on it!

beat

How do you want Stern and the refs to be transparent?
Do you want the league to sit with both coaches after each game to review all of the 50/50 plays or calls/non-calls?

I wish the league was harder on the players.
Do you remember last years pre-season when the league came down with a mandate to the referees to call T's for physical displays of disagreement? Once the season started, the league backed off. We would be in a better position today, if they would have stuck to their guns.

The media needs stuff to talk about.
They talk endlessly about the Kardashians, LeBron's Decision or anything they will keep people watching.

This will die down when the series is over.
But, will it die down among Celtics fans?
I think it will stay with them.

Well Said Beat.

tjmakz wrote:This does not reflect well on Celtics fans.
It seems like it hasn't stopped from game 7 of the 2010 Finals.

Has anyone ever tried to listen to Tommy objectively?
He has morphed into someone who is basically laughed at from people who are not Celtics fans because of his constant complaining about the referees.

BIG DEAL!!

It isn't just us!

beat

tjmakz wrote:How do you want Stern and the refs to be transparent?
Do you want the league to sit with both coaches after each game to review all of the 50/50 plays or calls/non-calls?

I wish the league was harder on the players.
Do you remember last years pre-season when the league came down with a mandate to the referees to call T's for physical displays of disagreement? Once the season started, the league backed off. We would be in a better position today, if they would have stuck to their guns.

The media needs stuff to talk about.
They talk endlessly about the Kardashians, LeBron's Decision or anything they will keep people watching.

This will die down when the series is over.
But, will it die down among Celtics fans?
I think it will stay with them.

if I had the answers I'd give them out in a heartbeat, I wish I could. Heck our local HS basketball league/ local (ref) board has more accountabilty with their officials than the NBA does.

Hell remember the deal with the "non" leather ball the league forced the players to use cause some PETA fans put pressure on Stern and he caved to them like a house of cards in a windstorn and ordered the use of the "synthetic" ball...... only when enough players said the ball sucked did they go abck to the "old" leather one.

beat

tjmakz wrote:How do you want Stern and the refs to be transparent?

Are you kidding? You act like accountability and transparency are new concepts.

Here are a few things the NBA should immediately implement - many of which are ALREADY IN PLACE in other sports:

-Review and comment on ALL incorrect game changing calls. Refs who blow a call should receive a point. Too many points, you no longer get to ref in the playoffs. Too many points in consecutive season - find a new job.

-Along those same lines, grade the refs and make those grades known to players and executives.

-Open up a more reasonable dialogue between all parties involved - including fans, by explaining rule changes and then implementing those changes for ALL players, not just the scrubs on the bench.

-Immediately remove all convicted felons who are working in the NBA and fire on the spot any future ref who is convicted of a crime which calls into question his judgement and impartiality.

-Institute a mandatory retirement age. Clearly people like Dick Bavetta and Joey Crawford cant keep up along longer, which is why they are out of position half the time.

Basketball is a tough game to officiate....maybe the hardest of them all. But something has to change.....or people are going to simply tune out.

NBA Officials, not the league of extrordinary gentlemen, but the league of convicted ex-fellons!-Don't tie any of this to ANYONE affiliated with the Celtics! The C's are exemplary & above reproach!

MD!