No center position on the NBA Ballot....

NYCelt,

There you go again, trying to confuse everyone with facts. Don't you realize that conspiracy theories based not on fact but on personal animus are the only way to go?

I regret my misspent youth, in which I should have spent so much time griping about Commissioner Maurice Podoloff and his referees that I would never have had time for trivialities such as meeting so many Celtics and rooting them to so many titles. Clearly, I missed all the fun.

Sam

Sam,

I still get the feeling your misspent youth must have been a heck-of-a lot of fun.

Regards

What conspiracy theories Sam? you didn't see a certain point guard get raked across the face on an easy layup at a crucial point near the end of game that directly led to 2 points on the break going the other way or Durant get fouled twice on one play at end of game 2....theres no conspiracy theory these are facts that millions of people saw that made them SICK. Show me a guy who doesn't stand up for himself throughout life and I'll show you a loser. When was there a time in Celtic history we got 2 blatent calls like that in a playoff run? right it never happened to us!!!

Hi,
Here the article that tells a lot about the "side subject" of the thread.
Since I'm not privy to the dealing and willing in the NBA but greatly respect AWoj as a basketball journalist plus observed a few things over the years, I'd say Spike isn't that far from the strike zone.

AK

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Thanks for the link, AK. Thanks in absentia to AWoj, who clearly has more cojones than most basketball writers, for showing the emperor without his clothes.

It's extremely revealing that Red attacked this bureaucratic bully from the beginning to the end. If anyone wants facts, read what Red says about Stern in "Let Me Tell You A Story."

Can you imagine how it must have pissed off the petty dictator for Red to call him 'Stupid' to his face, every time he saw him?

cowens/oldschool wrote:What conspiracy theories Sam? you didn't see a certain point guard get raked across the face on an easy layup at a crucial point near the end of game that directly led to 2 points on the break going the other way or Durant get fouled twice on one play at end of game 2....theres no conspiracy theory these are facts that millions of people saw that made them SICK. Show me a guy who doesn't stand up for himself throughout life and I'll show you a loser. When was there a time in Celtic history we got 2 blatent calls like that in a playoff run? right it never happened to us!!!

cow,

Do you realize that referees/umpires miss calls in every sport in almost every game?
Did you see earlier this year when Todd Helton came 3 feet off the 1st base bag to catch a poor throw and the umpire confidently called the runner out?
That was probably the worst call in sports history.
In the playoffs a few years ago, Angel Hernandez was the left field umpire for a Twins/Yankees playoff game. A Twins hitter hit a ball near the left field foul line. Angel Hernandez turned to watch the ball, was in perfect position with one foot on each side of the foul line, and he completely missed the call. The ball landed about 18 inches in fair territory and Hernandez called foul.
And earlier this year when Johan Santana threw his no hitter, a batter hit a ball down the 3rd base line. The ball hit in the middle of the white line, kicked up chalk, left a ball mark on the line, and the ball was called foul when it was clearly fair.

The NBA is the hardest sport to referee.
I would think that Rondo's reputation for falling down and exaggerating contact added to the confusion/non-call from the referee.

rickdavisakaspike wrote:

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Thanks for the link, AK. Thanks in absentia to AWoj, who clearly has more cojones than most basketball writers, for showing the emperor without his clothes.

It's extremely revealing that Red attacked this bureaucratic bully from the beginning to the end. If anyone wants facts, read what Red says about Stern in "Let Me Tell You A Story."

Can you imagine how it must have pissed off the petty dictator for Red to call him 'Stupid' to his face, every time he saw him?

spike,

I just read many pages of Red's book and I don't see anything negative that he said about David Stern other then he disagreed with Stern about allowing NBA players to play in the Olympics.
Red used to kid Stern that he was a Knicks fan (page 298) and biased toward the Knicks, but Red said: "If I really thought he was biased, believe me, I wouldn't just kid him about it."
Page 139: Red has great respect for the work Stern did restoring the league to prominence in the 1980's.
Red praised Stern for the great marketing job he has done with the NBA.

Can you show us from Red's book where he said anything negative about Stern?

TJ


Re Santana's No No

Hit the MIDDLE........... not quite

even on this slo mo replay you can barely see the chalk fly on the foul edge of the line.

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images//visual/whatshot/Beltran060112.gif

at real time speed it is quite easy to see how an UMP could blow this call.



beat

TJ,
Your argument would be correct except it doesn't fit what could be described by law of averages: if a ref makes mistakes they'd spread more or less evenly between the two teams, even more so when you have 3 refs.
Unfortunately, it wasn't the case in the last season's ECF. The drastic difference between officiating in the first 2 games and the last 5 games another proof. On top of that we had WTF reaction from many media outlets including national media.
So, to say that refs made mistakes and basketball is the hardest sport to referee in this particular case is just, sorry, plain ridiculous.

AK

sinus,

I would agree that in the first two games Boston got the short end of the calls. Law of averages can't be figured for just a handful of calls over a couple of games.

If you believe in a conspiracy, can you explain how deep this goes?
Has Stern ever told or implied to referees to make certain calls against the Celtics? Are the referees receiving money for making calls against the Celtics? Are the referees threatened with their jobs if they don't favor one team over another?

You have to read between the lines, tj. Red called him stupid and made sure everyone knew. He publicly accused the league commissioner of being a Knicks fan. You think that's respect?

"Red has great respect for the work Stern did restoring the league to prominence in the 1980s." Those are John Feinstein's words, not Red's, and typical of how Stern gets credit for other people's work: for the record, as you well know, there is no doubt whatsoever that Magic Johnson and Larry Bird restored the league to prominence in the 1980s, not David Stern.

In the very next sentence, Feinstein explains where the respect comes from, this time using Red's words: "The most important thing he did was getting the union to accept the salary cap." Red then made sure to give Larry Fleischer equal credit for the salary cap. According to Red, the salary cap was the most important thing Stern did, period, end of story. I call that faint praise, indeed, for the dictatorial Commissioner of the league in which your team competes. Why do you think he called Stern stupid?

When Reggie Lewis died, Red tried to get the league to make an exception to the salary cap for a deceased player who was still on the books. Red was royally pissed off because the league (i.e., Stern) refused to consider the request. It was all over the newspapers in Boston and New York and there was a lot of resentment in Boston. There was also a time in the 1984 Finals when Larry Bird publicly accused Stern of fixing a game.

Everyone knows why you favor Stern, tj. What was it that Tim Donaghy (and certain indisputable facts, such as the discrepancy in fourth quarter foul calls) said about the Lakers-Kings series in 2002? That it was fixed? If I was a Lakers fan, I would be on my knees praying to David Stern, too.

Here's a pleasant thought: if the Finals next spring come down to the Heat and the Lakers, and knowing how Stern is Lebron's buttboy, how confident are you that the refs won't favor the Heat?

Don't worry; it'll be the Celtics and the Thunder.

While I certainly respect the basketball knowledge several of my friends here have, this is a strange and pointless discussion. There is no plan being executed to gang up on The Celtics; where is there one proven piece of evidence? To suggest that officials are consistently making bad calls on purpose in front of crowded arenas or millions watching televised games is just plain silly.

As far as Red's opinion of Stern's intelligence and capability; most of what is being said here falls under the category "urban myth." Red did disagree on a couple of things with Stern, but not on his guidance of the league overall. By the way, Red wan't always right anyway; we do get that he was human, don't we? Just like the officials.

I'm not sure where this mentality of the team being picked on comes from, but I don't get it.

************************************************************************

Let's go back to the no center on the All-Star ballot discussion...

The game is still in an era dominated by guards and what we now call wing players. The center position and it's skills have become interchangeable with power forward, which itself didn't really exist until someone noticed Bob Pettit was somehow more than the typical forward. Like most sports, the game evolves and in it's current form there's not much to distinguish a center from a forward. More precisely Center and Power Forward can be described as Forward, Small Forward and 2-Guard as Wing. You could just say Forward, Wing and Point and be done with it. No need for Center on the All-Star ballot.

spike,

You still haven't proven where Red called Stern stupid every time he saw him. Until you do so, I have to assume that you have made that up.

Why should Stern have made a one-time exception for the Celtics when Lewis died? Should they have made that exception if a Lakers or a Knicks or a Warriors player died?

I believe more people (all Celtics fans) that have commented in this thread have agreed with me over you. Lakers fans don't pray to David Stern. Personally, I think he has done a great job with the league. I enjoy listening to him because he is funny, witty and honest.

Back in 2010 some Celtics fans whined about Kobe and the Lakers favored by Stern. Now it is Miami? How come dictator Stern allowed LeBron to be humiliated year after year in the playoffs until last year?

Celtics vs. Thunder in the NBA FInals?
I would be quite comfortable betting against that happening, but if that is your prediction, that is ok with me.

TJ,
I'm not a conspiracy proponent. I'm not a conspirator, either
OTOH, I, as millions other fans, observed events that can not be explained by unintentional, honest mistakes. If you have some other explanation I'm open to listen and accept or argue against.

AK

sinus007 wrote:TJ,
I'm not a conspiracy proponent. I'm not a conspirator, either
OTOH, I, as millions other fans, observed events that can not be explained by unintentional, honest mistakes. If you have some other explanation I'm open to listen and accept or argue against.

AK

sinus,

I believe your foundation for being open minded in discussions as shown by your comment above, is based on pure opinion or a preconceived bias.
They were unintentional, honest mistakes.

TJ,
You can believe in whatever you like. But your opinion "They were unintentional, honest mistakes" is just that - your opinion. It, unfortunately, ill fitted as an explanation of what happened in that ECF series officiating.
I could try to repeat all my arguments once again, but I'm not sure it'd help. Therefore, I guess we remain where we were. Let's agree to disagree.

AK

tjmakz wrote:spike,

You still haven't proven where Red called Stern stupid every time he saw him. Until you do so, I have to assume that you have made that up.

Why should Stern have made a one-time exception for the Celtics when Lewis died? Should they have made that exception if a Lakers or a Knicks or a Warriors player died?

I believe more people (all Celtics fans) that have commented in this thread have agreed with me over you. Lakers fans don't pray to David Stern. Personally, I think he has done a great job with the league. I enjoy listening to him because he is funny, witty and honest.

Back in 2010 some Celtics fans whined about Kobe and the Lakers favored by Stern. Now it is Miami? How come dictator Stern allowed LeBron to be humiliated year after year in the playoffs until last year?

Celtics vs. Thunder in the NBA FInals?
I would be quite comfortable betting against that happening, but if that is your prediction, that is ok with me.

TJ,

Here's a link to an online "chat" with David Stern in 10/06.


Rob, Miami, FL: I know you must be saddened by the passing of Red Auerbach. What is your favorite memory of Red?


David Stern:
My favorite memory of Red is calling him once and saying, "Red, they
want us to raise the baskets because the big players have too much of an
advantage. What do you think?" He said, "Well, listen, stupid," that's
what he called me, stupid. He said, "If they raise the baskets, they're
going to miss more shots, right?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Now who's
going to get the rebounds?" And I said, "The big guys." He says, "OK,
stupid, now get rid of that idea." I said, "Thank you, Red, I appreciate
your firm advice." He was a great fan and a great friend.






http://www.nba.com/news/chat_david_stern_061031.html




bob




.

He (Red) was a great fan and a great friend...

OK, good, on we go...

Now about the center position not being on the All-Star ballot...

TJ,

Also, here's a re-post of a post of mine dating back to 1/27/11 on Spike's thread entitled "Red the Mathematician".

David Stern: "He would always accuse me of being too soft on one thing
or another, and he did it very colorfully. He would describe some part
of the male anatomy that I was missing."

Stern got a dose of Auerbach's feistiness before he joined the NBA. He was a young lawyer
defending depositions Auerbach was one his company's clients.

Auerbach's response to a particular question was, "Listen, kid, I'm not going to answer that."

Stern says after some coaxing, Auerbach finally answered the question.

When Stern became NBA commissioner, he found Auerbach to be just as ornery.

"We had an avuncular relationship," Stern says. "He was the uncle and I was
the dutiful nephew. He would start each session by saying, 'now listen,
stupid.' I thought that was my name as he would explain a basketball
subtlety. I got a promotion. I went from 'listen, kid' to 'listen
stupid.'."

Even though Auerbach didn't become kinder or gentler, that didn't prevent Stern from turning to him for advice.

"Until this day, when I would talk to him and say talk to me about this,"
Stern said last fall, "He would say something like, 'listen, stupid. If
you raise the hoop, who's going to get the rebounds? The big guys. OK.
That's exactly what you're trying avoid, isn't it stupid?'."


In fact, here's the link to that entire thread. A really nice story about Red and Russ to start the thread, courtesy of Spike, from "Red and Me" by William Felton Russell.

https://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2260-red-the-mathematician


bob


.

bobheckler wrote:

tjmakz wrote:spike,

You still haven't proven where Red called Stern stupid every time he saw him. Until you do so, I have to assume that you have made that up.

Why should Stern have made a one-time exception for the Celtics when Lewis died? Should they have made that exception if a Lakers or a Knicks or a Warriors player died?

I believe more people (all Celtics fans) that have commented in this thread have agreed with me over you. Lakers fans don't pray to David Stern. Personally, I think he has done a great job with the league. I enjoy listening to him because he is funny, witty and honest.

Back in 2010 some Celtics fans whined about Kobe and the Lakers favored by Stern. Now it is Miami? How come dictator Stern allowed LeBron to be humiliated year after year in the playoffs until last year?

Celtics vs. Thunder in the NBA FInals?
I would be quite comfortable betting against that happening, but if that is your prediction, that is ok with me.

TJ,

Here's a link to an online "chat" with David Stern in 10/06.


Rob, Miami, FL: I know you must be saddened by the passing of Red Auerbach. What is your favorite memory of Red?


David Stern:
My favorite memory of Red is calling him once and saying, "Red, they
want us to raise the baskets because the big players have too much of an
advantage. What do you think?" He said, "Well, listen, stupid," that's
what he called me, stupid. He said, "If they raise the baskets, they're
going to miss more shots, right?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Now who's
going to get the rebounds?" And I said, "The big guys." He says, "OK,
stupid, now get rid of that idea." I said, "Thank you, Red, I appreciate
your firm advice." He was a great fan and a great friend.






http://www.nba.com/news/chat_david_stern_061031.html




bob




.

bob,

Thanks for the post. What you posted is one conversation where Red playfully called Stern stupid.
Stern called him a great friend.
What spike said is that Stern called him stupid every time he saw him.

Even if Red did call Stern stupid every time he saw him, I would liken that to a guy that has a 7 foot friend and he has nicknamed him Shorty.

I bet there has been more intentional bad things said about Stern in this thread then Red said in his life about Stern.

Sorry, NYCelt....this is a good/meaningless conversation...

Coming late to the party, I'll chime in about the (ahem) center on the All-Star ballot thing.

The classic definitions of guard, forward, and center don't necessarily apply anymore. I think the decision to drop "center" from the all-star ballot reflects that.

Despite having 30 teams, what we have right now are a lot of great players at every position except center. Arguably, we have only one great center (Howard), a could-be (Bynum), and numerous good but hardly great centers (Hibbert, Bogut, Gortat, Marc Gasol, etc.), and we also have several great or really good power forwards who fill the role of center (Garnett, Duncan, Bosh). I think the decision to drop "center" from the all-star ballot reflects that as well.

But some things evolve, while other things go in cycles. The problem I have is that the first factor -- classic definitions of player positions no longer apply -- is evolutionary, while the second factor -- there's a remarkable shortage of great true centers -- is cyclical. We will have great centers in the game again. A truly talented center can impact a game in so many ways at both ends of the court, ways that no other type of player can. We had a golden age of centers in the 1960's, players like Russell, Chamberlain, Thurmond, Bellamy, Lucas, and Reed. They were followed by Unseld, Jabbar, Cowens, Lanier, Walton, Gilmore, Parish, Malone, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq. Just because we're in a lull right now doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. Great traditional-type centers will come back.

But then, as others have pointed out, the all-star game isn't what it used to be either. It used to actually matter to the players, and they competed intensely in these games through the '60's and '70's. But somewhere along the line, it turned into a no-defense, hot-dogging snooze fest, so from that perspective, they can do whatever they want to the all-star ballot. And unfortunately, I think the change in the all-star game is evolutionary (de-evolutionary?) more than cyclical.

I believe that the lack of Super star centers now is nothing more than a generational differance in athletic skills on the offensive side of the game. Equiped With ball handling and outside shooting skills todays big men are no longer confined to a back to the basket role. As a result the coaching fraternity has simply developed a different style of offense to take advantage of the skills of the new generation of players. With the NBA having had about 62 years to evolve I'm personally not surprised in the changes. Perhaps someday in the future we will see a return to low post dominance.

swish

To anyone and no one:

I won't be surprised if, in the not-too-distant future, there are three positions voted on: big men, wings and point guard. Not that I care even a teeny tiny bit about the all-star farce. But it is interesting to reflect on changes in basketball.

I often talk about Red's propensity to acquire players for their main attributes rather than how well-rounded they are. Based on that "model," and very much over-simplifying everything, I believe there are three main attributes:

Big men are the rebounders
Wings are the shooters
Point guards are the distributors

Of course, all of them have ancillary abilities on both offense and defense; but I'm talking about their most distinguishing roles.

Just as the majority of centers are now power forwards playing in the center, I bet there's not a whole lot separating the average height of shooting guards from that of small forwards. And I believe there's even less difference in their primary roles, which focus very much on shooting/scoring. In fact, Doc just said that the roles of his shooting guards and small forwards are "the same."

To the extent that there remain separate classifications of small forwards and shooting guards, it could very well be that the distinction will soon be on the defensive, rather than the offensive, end of the floor.

Sam