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POST GAME RECAP

ESPNBOSTON.COM

By Chris Forsberg | ESPNBoston.com

BOSTON -- Rapid reaction after the Boston Celtics defeated the Cleveland Cavaliers 103-91 on Wednesday night at TD Garden:

THE NITTY GRITTY
Celtics captain Paul Pierce poured in 40 points on super efficient 13-of-16 shooting, which included 6-of-7 shooting beyond the 3-point arc. It was the 24th 40-point effort of Pierce's career, but only the second regular-season outburst since February of 2006. Pierce added eight rebounds, five assists, three steals, and a block while finishing plus-29 overall. Rajon Rondo added 20 points on 7-of-11 shooting with eight assists. Kyrie Irving (22 points) and Tyler Zeller (20 points) keyed Cleveland's offense, while Tristan Thompson added 11 points and 12 rebounds.

TURNING POINT
The Celtics were up eight at halftime and Pierce went from hot to unconscious in the third quarter. Pierce poured in 15 points on 7-of-7 shooting over the first seven minutes of the frame. During one stretch, Pierce alone went on a 12-2 run that culminated with consecutive 3-pointers and a 75-57 lead with 4:55 to play in the frame. Pierce went to the bench a minute later with 32 points on 10-of-12 shooting, having made all six of the 3-pointers he had hoisted to that point. That should have been enough to cue up Gino, but ...

C'S HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE
Boston led by as much as 20 in the third quarter, only to have Cleveland cut its deficit in half before the end of the frame. Boston was left clinging to an 82-80 lead with nine minutes to go after a 20-2 run, but a Rondo jumper and two freebies (when he got lucky to avoid his sixth foul with a near charge). The Cavaliers never got closer than a two-possession game the rest of the way.

RONDO THE SCORER
Rondo didn't register his first assist of the game until midway through the second quarter when he fed Pierce for a 3-pointer with 4:56 to play in the first half. Rondo finished the first half with 12 points on 4-of-6 shooting with four rebounds, two assists, and two steals.

EXPERIMENT WORKS FOR THE JASONS
Back in the starting lineup after three games as a reserve, Jason Terry chipped in 15 points on 6-of-9 shooting over 35 minutes. Jason Collins, drawing his first start of the season, played a season-high 23:16 and despite a quiet stat line (1 points, 2 rebounds) played solid defense and was plus-23 overall. Collins did foul out and got tagged with a flagrant-1 for a hard foul that saw him dislodge Thompson's facemask late in the game.

WHAT IT MEANS
Nothing like the Anderson Varejao-less Cavaliers to cure what ails you ... even if Boston's second-half lull sent coach Doc Rivers' blood pressure dangerously high. Pierce put this team on his shoulders and carried them to a must-have win. The Celtics will get a day to rest before hosting the Milwaukee Bucks (yes, the Bucks again for the fourth time in 26 games) on Friday night. A four-game road trip looms after that starting on Christmas Day in Brooklyn before Boston treks out west for three games to close out the calendar year.
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WEEI 93.7FM


FAST BREAK: PAUL PIERCE’S 40 POINTS END CELTICS SKID 12.19.12 at 9:54 pm ET

By Ben Rohrbach

His Celtics in desperate need of a victory after a winless three-game road trip, Celtics captain Paul Pierce scored a season-high 40 points for the first time since 2010 to will the C’s over the Cavaliers, 103-91.

With help from veteran teammates Rajon Rondo (20 points, 8 assists), Jason Terry (15 points) and Kevin Garnett (12 points), Pierce also contributed eight rebounds and five assists to push the Celtics above .500 (13-12).

WHAT WENT RIGHT

Raging Rondo: Add another strange stat line to Rondo’s resume. He finished the first quarter with 12 points, four rebounds and zero assists. More importantly, he attacked the basket, attempting all five of his field goals in the paint and making four of them. Rondo also set the tone early against Kyrie Irving on the other end, holding his Cavaliers counterpart to four points and no assists in the opening quarter as the C’s took a 27-25 lead.

Captain on course: Slowly, inevitably, Pierce is righting his ship. After shooting a respectable 13-of-23 (4-8 3P) in his last two games, Pierce started a perfect 6-for-6 from beyond the arc against Cleveland. He finished 13-of-16 from the field and 8-of-8 from the free throw line. Pierce’s 10 first-quarter points staked the Celtics to an early lead, and his 17 third-quarter points kept the Cavaliers at bay. All in all, Pierce’s best night of the season.

JET grounded no more: A night after attempting just two shots against the Bulls, Terry returned to the starting lineup, scored 15 points on 6-of-9 shooting and drilled a trio of treys, including a dagger with 2:48 remaining.

WHAT WENT WRONG

Serving of Irving: Of course, Rondo couldn’t keep Irving quiet the entire night. The Cavs star nearly matched Pierce’s offensive outburst in the third quarter, scoring 15 points on 6-of-9 shooting, including 2-of-3 from long distance. He scored nine of Cleveland’s final 11 points in the frame, slicing a 20-point Celtics lead in half.

No rest for the weary: As the Celtics built their seemingly insurmountable second-half lead, coach Doc Rivers rested both Pierce and Garnett in the third quarter, hoping to limit their minutes during their fourth game in six nights. Only the bench (combined 15 points on 6-16 FG) couldn’t hold the fort, allowing the Cavaliers to cut the lead to two with nine minutes remaining and placing the burden on the starters’ tired legs.

The Collins Experiment: Rivers replaced Brandon Bass in the starting lineup with Jason Collins, a move that elicited a collective “Huh?” from the crowd during pregame announcements. If the Celtics haven’t pressed the panic button, they certainly have their hand on it. Collins finished with more fouls than combined points and rebounds as Cavaliers center Tyler Zeller scored a season-high 20 points.


112288

112288 wrote:

The Collins Experiment: Rivers replaced Brandon Bass in the starting lineup with Jason Collins, a move that elicited a collective “Huh?” from the crowd during pregame announcements. If the Celtics haven’t pressed the panic button, they certainly have their hand on it. Collins finished with more fouls than combined points and rebounds as Cavaliers center Tyler Zeller scored a season-high 20 points.

Extremely MISLEADING paragraph here.

Jason Collins didnt cover Zeller most of the time, KG did. Jason Collins - while slow on his rotations at times, played a very solid defensive game - and made his 6 fouls count, bringing a bit of physicality to the court which has been sorely missing.

Doc cant win with some of these writers. If he makes a move, it is a mover of desperation. If he doesnt make a move, people think he has given up.

Shuffling the line up, searching for a combination that works better together is the coach's job ... especially when his team is 500 a month into the season. And with Pierce, Jet, Rondo and KG all having good games....seems like the Collins experiment worked out well and will probably get a repeat appearance on Friday.

Give it a rest Ben Roherbach.....your lack of basketball understanding is making you sound like a fool.

Another piece of misleading information in that paragraph -- Tyler Zeller scored a season-high 20 points because Varejao didn't play (he missed his first game of the season) and Zeller played a season high 38 minutes (he averages 22).

I am glad you both pointed that out so others can be aware. Both should get on the WEEI web site and post your comments to By Ben Rohrbach.

I prefer the ESPNBOSTON.COM articles as they know their basketball, that is why I lead with them.

Thanks!

112288

Certainly good to get the "W". However, Cavs were without Verejaeo, and we can't expect Pierce to turn back the clock and drop 40 on a nightly basis. Kobe can't even do that anymore! On another thread someone suggested a multiple team trade to get Tyreke Evans & the aforementioned Verejaeo. I know unless your name's Auerbach you have to give up something to get something. I just don't think this Celtic team has enough chips surplus not to weaken itself in other areas.

MD!

Good observations, MD and Outside. There's enough bellyaching to go around without some media type scratching his rear end in an effort to turn glimmers into transgressions.

Although this win does nothing to change the fact that the Celtics can beat poorer teams but really struggle against better teams right now, there were some glimmers (as there usually are). Remember that a glimmer in my book represents something that represents potential long-term promise—not simply a good performance in a single game.

I thought Rosalie made a very astute comment on the Game On Thread when she observed that we were seeing a little bit of the impact a defensively minded center can have alongside KG. Rosalie wasn't implying that Collins should be that center long-term or that Collins played like an all-star, but she recognized the kind of impact such a component can make.

While the fact that Paul Pierce possesses high-scoring abilities isn't news, I think back a day or two, when I expressed hope that Doc and/or the point guard and/or the captain would seize the initiative in pointing this team in a positive direction. Paul certainly fulfilled his part last night (basically refusing to lose and even doing so with a bit of a swagger). Moreover, so did Doc (with his lineup changes acting as a combination wakeup call and chemistry-builder) and Rondo (displaying the number one attribute the Celtics have been most lacking—constant aggressiveness).

While not an unprecedented factor, Terry's contributions seem to be morphing from random happenings to timely catalysts. In short, he seems to be "getting" the Celtics' rhythms and flow. He's learning when an attempted three is appropriate and when the risk of its being a rally killer is too great. He's mixing up a perimeter game with some forays to the hoop. And he's far from a defensive liability. I really appreciated his steal and subsequent floor-length drive last night.

Nothing I mention is earthshaking. That's not the definition of a "glimmer." And, in my analogy of human growth, this team still hasn't shown consistent signs of being able to evolve from the crawling to the walking stage. But it's nice to be able to point to some hopeful developments...especially on the second night of a back-to-back at the end of a semi-disastrous road trip.

By the way, did anyone else hear Mike Gorman's statement after the game about back-to-backs? I found it so unbelievable that I'm hoping someone can confirm or deny that I heard correctly. I believe Mike said that, in their last 15 home court second games of back-to-backs, the Celtics are 15-0.

Sam

Hopefully the KG experiment at center is over. KG was able to roam freely on defense and help out the perimeter defense.

Now we need a center.

112288

sam wrote:Good observations, MD and Outside. There's enough bellyaching to go around without some media type scratching his rear end in an effort to turn glimmers into transgressions.

Although this win does nothing to change the fact that the Celtics can beat poorer teams but really struggle against better teams right now, there were some glimmers (as there usually are). Remember that a glimmer in my book represents something that represents potential long-term promise—not simply a good performance in a single game.

I thought Rosalie made a very astute comment on the Game On Thread when she observed that we were seeing a little bit of the impact a defensively minded center can have alongside KG. Rosalie wasn't implying that Collins should be that center long-term or that Collins played like an all-star, but she recognized the kind of impact such a component can make.

While the fact that Paul Pierce possesses high-scoring abilities isn't news, I think back a day or two, when I expressed hope that Doc and/or the point guard and/or the captain would seize the initiative in pointing this team in a positive direction. Paul certainly fulfilled his part last night (basically refusing to lose and even doing so with a bit of a swagger). Moreover, so did Doc (with his lineup changes acting as a combination wakeup call and chemistry-builder) and Rondo (displaying the number one attribute the Celtics have been most lacking—constant aggressiveness).

While not an unprecedented factor, Terry's contributions seem to be morphing from random happenings to timely catalysts. In short, he seems to be "getting" the Celtics' rhythms and flow. He's learning when an attempted three is appropriate and when the risk of its being a rally killer is too great. He's mixing up a perimeter game with some forays to the hoop. And he's far from a defensive liability. I really appreciated his steal and subsequent floor-length drive last night.

Nothing I mention is earthshaking. That's not the definition of a "glimmer." And, in my analogy of human growth, this team still hasn't shown consistent signs of being able to evolve from the crawling to the walking stage. But it's nice to be able to point to some hopeful developments...especially on the second night of a back-to-back at the end of a semi-disastrous road trip.

By the way, did anyone else hear Mike Gorman's statement after the game about back-to-backs? I found it so unbelievable that I'm hoping someone can confirm or deny that I heard correctly. I believe Mike said that, in their last 15 home court second games of back-to-backs, the Celtics are 15-0.
Sam

Sam,

Yes, Boston has 15 straight wins when the 2nd game of a back to back is at home.
It is interesting that the next time they play at home for the 2nd game of a back to back will be on 2/7/13 against the Lakers...

After an ugly 0-3 road trip, we needed a W. We got one. Right now, to hell with style points, we need Ws. Period.

To be fair, this is not the same team that was 5-21 coming in. Kyrie Irving is back now and he is explosive. I was waiting for the match to be lit for him all game and he didn't disappoint.

We were up 20 with 2:54 left in the 3rd. 2:54 seconds later we were only up 10. Against this team? Not good. Halfway through the 4th it was down to 4. Then, a match was lit, but not under Irving.

1. Last night was The Paul Pierce Show. He was showing me moves he hasn't used in a while. As bad as his shooting has been of late, that's how good it was last night. He was unstoppable. They were throwing doubles at him but, instead of dribbling once too many and getting swallowed up, he took the shot quickly. And they went in. As MD pointed out, we can't count on 40 from Pierce all the time, but it's reassuring to know that he can still do it.

2. JET had a good game too. In the final 6 minutes, when we were up by only 4, JET had 7 of the Celtics final 15 points (Pierce had 6 and Rondo had a pair of free throws). He was ice. He hasn't been consistent, none of them have been, but he did his job last night. He also had 4 assists and only 2 TOs.

3. Rondo attacked, attacked, attacked last night. He had no assists until late in the second quarter because he was taking the ball himself to the hole. Halfcourt, fullcourt, he was aggressively going straight at the defense, and it paid off. He also did an excellent job of keeping Irving at bay for most of the night. Fantastic all-round game, on both sides of the ball, by Rondo.

4. Sully came in, impressed everyone by swallowing up 5 rebounds in 8 minutes, sat down, and then offered nothing in subsequent appearances besides picking up fouls. Rookie inconsistencies and rookie fouls.

5. Our bench stunk. Again. Collectively they shot 6-17. Considering that Lee was 2-3, that should tell you just how bad Green, Sully and Bass were. This is now an official concern. Bass's head is all screwed up. It's so obvious that his shooting motion is off. He's giving a little extra oomph at the end of his releases instead of a smooth, even, fluid release and his shots are all coming off the back of the rim. I don't like +/- stats for bench players, since the units they play on are more diverse and varied than the starters, but when you consider we led the whole game and were up by 20 at one point and won by 12, I think Jeff Green's -17 stands out like a sore thumb. The next closest Celtic to him was Lee with -9.

6. Barbosa was a -7, also not good, but he only played 3 minutes. He came in with 44 seconds left in the 3rd and Irving hit a shot. In the previous 2:10 minutes (2:54, up by 20, to :44, up by 12), Irving was 3-3 for 7 points. Rondo had him for some of it and then JET. What I'm getting at is "why didn't Doc put Barbosa in earlier and more? There are only 2 players on the roster, with Bradley still out, that have the speed to handle Irving and Rondo has to sit down at some time. I know I'm supporting Barbosa more than his contributions warrant, but he's usually effective when he's in. Respect for his speed, alone, makes the defense adjust. I wish I could read Doc's mind. Or watch the practices.

7. Kyrie Irving is a very composed kid. He's an Allen Iverson type. Extremely dangerous. He needs help on that team, but he's an excellent building block. He was almost invisible in the first half, but ended the game with 22 points on 9-17, 2-5 from 3. Explosive scoring. Rondo did an excellent job of staying in front of Irving for most of the game. Not on his side, not doing reach-arounds (ok, he did try a few of those. Didn't work) but actually playing solid position defense like we've seen him play for years now. You knew, though, that eventually someone would smoke a cigarette near the ammo magazine and Irving was going to go off. We're lucky it wasn't until the 3rd quarter. He is fun to watch. Especially from a distance, like, say, anywhere except Boston?

8. Tyler Zeller is a rookie 7'er who can pick-and-pop. Nice range, you cannot leave him. He also did a lot of cleanup on the offensive boards, he had 2, with quick little flips for baskets. Only 3 rebounds in 36 minutes? That's positively Jeff Green-like numbers, and Green's not a 7' center. He left the rebounding to Tristan Thompson, who had 12, but couldn't throw the ball into the Atlantic from the edge of the pier.

9. Luke Walton is still playing? I thought he had hung them up and was sitting around with his dad smoking weed and listening to the Grateful Dead.

10. Syracuse product Dion Waiters was their go-to guy in the beginning, starting out very hot and aggressive, but then cooled off. Look at how young the Cleveland back court is...

11. The refs were something else last night. Clear blocks were called charges, clear charges were called blocks. Rondo's 5th foul was an obvious make-up call as Alonzo Gee flopped (and then got up and laughed, as did the rest of the Cav's bench). You want to make-up a call? Ok, but don't give it to a key player as their 5th foul! That's a game changer, while the first foul was not. I'm not saying they had an anti-Celtic bias, I'm saying they were equal opportunity screw-ups.

12. We were slow on the boards. The ball would come off the board and, instead of aggressively going to it, we froze a bit and waited it to come down. As a result, Cleveland was able to grab 13 offensive rebounds. They moved, we didn't. In once case a Cav, I think it was Waiters, took an off-balance jumpshot from the corner with a man on him and another, KG, coming at him to stop and further penetration. There were 3 Celtics with position underneath the boards and KG between Waiters and the ball and Waiters still got the offensive rebound because we watched the ball come off the board instead of moving towards it. That also happened with missed Cav free throws. There is no excuse for giving up an offensive board on a missed free throw. You know where the shot is going to come from, you know where your man is and you know when your man will be allowed to move.

13. Jason Collins started at center and did, I thought, a good job. Definitely nothing flashy, but solid, muscular position stuff. The thought of Collins as a starting center frightens me, but it worked last night. He fouled out but made them count. We definitely need more beef.

Despite our Road Trip from Hell we're still in 8th in a very tight EC race. NYK beat Brooklyn last night to keep Brooklyn in a tie with us. As I said on another thread Screw LA, I'm aiming death stares at NY. They are BY FAR the bigger threat to #18. The good news is that the difference between 8th and 4th, where we have at least one round of homecourt, is only 2 games. Tomorrow, the surprising #5 Milwaukee Bucks come to town. Time for some payback. Indiana travels to Cleveland for, what will probably be a bunny, and Brooklyn plays the sagging Sixers. With luck, we could be back in fifth place by next week. I prefer solid, energetic play, but I'll take luck.

No Varajao and we win by 12 after almost blowing a 20 point lead. Hmmm. Well, we needed a W, and we got one. Period.

We better not take our foot off the pedal against Milwaukee on Friday though. They're not the Cleveland Cadavers.


bob


.

Here's a quote from Doc about Jason Collin's impact on the game last night, and a comment by Collins himself.


Jason Collins, for getting one point and two rebounds, had an amazing impact on the game for us,” said Celtics coach Doc Rivers.
His ability to defend the post and draw charges not only provided a
much-needed defensive presence, but it also allowed Kevin Garnett to go
back to his natural power forward position which paid dividends for the
Celtics at both ends of the floor.

“First basket we had was a pick; it was a bone-crushing pick, and it
was by Jason,” Rivers said. “That’s what we told you before the game, he
sets picks — hard ones. That set the tone.”

Said Collins: “If I’m not scoring, I better do something on the
offensive end. I pride myself on setting tough picks; going out there
and being physical. And on the defensive end, players drive the lane. …
are they going to try and take a charge on you or foul you pretty hard.”

bob


.

This, from ESPN-Boston, about Jason Collins. He's the new flavor of the week. I hope his shelf-life is more than a week...


BOSTON -- Jason Collins got the official word from head coach Doc Rivers about 50 minutes prior
to tipoff on Wednesday: He would be starting for the first time as a
Boston Celtic.


With the C's mired in a three-game losing streak and in need of yet
another rotation shakeup, Rivers turned to the player he's used less
than any other this season and Collins delivered by impacting several
key areas in Boston's 103-91 victory over the Cleveland Cavaliers on Wednesday night at TD Garden.


The basic stats won't jump out of the box score: one point, two
rebounds and six fouls in 23 minutes for Collins. But a glance at the
plus/minus column painted a more potent picture of Collins' overall
impact. Collins registered plus-23 for the game, good for second on the
team behind only Paul Pierce, who was plus-29 while scoring a season-high 40 points.


There was no highlight dunk for Collins, no stellar block or nifty
steal along the baseline; he didn't gobble up every missed shot or
ignite a scoring run for Boston. But he did set hard screens for his
teammates, make the proper rotations on the defensive end, look to both
take charges and challenge Cleveland's looks around the basket, and,
above all else, bring some professionalism and toughness to a team that
needed a sense of accountability.


As a testament to all that Collins did for his team, Pierce hand-delivered him the game ball afterward.


“Well, Jason really fills up the lane and he’s not afraid to take
charges," said Pierce. "Another big body to come out on people who likes
fouls, he takes charges. He throws his weight around. That’s something
that we need sometimes. Guys who go out there, put in that type of grit,
that defense that we need. He was able to do that. He was able to show
exactly, by example, what we need out there at different times. That’s
exactly what we needed tonight, some toughness."


Added Kevin Garnett: "[Collins is] a gutsy veteran that knows coverages, very professional.
JC's what we call a solid guy. He's not going to make too many mistakes.
He knows his role. Doc's looking for different lineups and he came in
and did his job tonight. He got the game ball. It's good to see him get
an opportunity and take advantage of the opportunity, so I was happy for
him."


Taking pressure off of Garnett was part of Collins' mission on
Wednesday -- something no other Celtics big man has been able to do
consistently this season. With Cleveland surging early in the fourth
quarter, Garnett sat at the 5:28 mark with Boston nursing a six-point
lead. Collins paired with Brandon Bass
in the frontcourt, and, until he fouled out with 3:13 to play, he
anchored Boston's defense as the team embarked on a 10-1 run to shut the
door on the Cavs for good.


"JC's guarded so many premier post guys since he's been in the
league -- he and his brother -- he knows how to guard," Garnett said.
"He plays with an oomph, if that's even a word. What I mean by that, he
plays power basketball, he's firm, and I think sometimes we lack that. I
think he came in and was very firm, not only with his fouls, but with
his shows, and we communicate really well. So, it was good. It was good
to work with him."


One might have thought that a lack of consistent playing time in
recent weeks -- prior to Tuesday's loss, Collins hadn't played since
Dec. 1 -- would hinder Collins' effectiveness Wednesday night. But in
tune with being a true professional, Collins has kept himself in steady
shape, and he said he didn't have any trouble with his wind throughout
the night.


"I felt fine," Collins said. "I've been really working hard with the
strength coaches and they do a great job of making sure I'm ready and,
cardio-wise, I felt good."


"His preparation’s good," Rivers said. "So, still not the game
minutes; we worry about his wind, but I wouldn’t worry about his play.
He’s very attuned; you can hear him on the bench telling guys what they
should’ve done when they’ve come out of games all year. So we knew he
knew what to do; I didn’t know if he could sustain as far as minutes.”


Collins sustained his effort and his mindset until he was forced to
leave the game with just over three minutes remaining, after fouling Tristan Thompson
hard in the lane -- an infraction later deemed a flagrant-1 foul by the
officials. Don't expect any sort of apology from Collins, though. In
true enforcer-like style, he said hard fouls should be expected by those
who meet him in the paint on a drive to the basket.


"If I'm not scoring, I better do something on the offensive end,"
Collins said. "I pride myself on setting tough picks and going out there
and being physical. And on the defensive end, players drive the lane,
I'm either going to try to take a charge on you or foul you pretty
hard."


Whether Collins is a long-term solution at the starting center spot
remains to be seen, but in the more immediate context, he delivered
exactly what Boston had been missing recently.


"That's always my focus. That's what gets me going," Collins said of
adhering to his style of play. "Every now and then you get a bone
thrown your way, but I don't need that. I pride myself on defense and
how the team does."









bob



.

bob,

As thorough as your post game analysis is, you need to hook up with a website and start making money for your post game analysis...

I loved point #9 about Luke Walton and his dad. Luke has 6 million reasons why he hasn't retired yet. After this year he has a zero percent chance of continuing his career. He will be an assistant coach in college and probably a head coach some day. He doesn't have the charisma for TV and radio that his dad has.

Concerning Collins, you can see what a true 7 footer with long arms and who is smart can do for a team that is weak in the middle. Unfortunately, Collins is not a long term or maybe even a short term answer for Boston. It worked last night without Varajeo. Collins offense is just non-existent. Boston needs a 7 footer that is able to score on the other end of the court.

Pierce was amazing last night. He isn't effective every night but when he is on, he takes the game over. Yes, he is terribly slow but he is not overweight or out of shape like some say he is.

There were a few close calls by the referees in the 4th quarter that really got Tommy going. The one that was called a block against Boston, I think the referee called it a block because he felt there was minimal contact, not enough to fall backwards (a flop). He clearly was in position in time and was well outside the semi-circle. The flagrant against Collins is now always being called a flagrant. If a defender comes down hard with one or both hands and hits the offensive player in the head, it is a flagrant, even if the defender got a considerable part of the ball.

I thought Collins played a great defensive game and some of the calls were bush league on him. He could be a nice fit either starting or second unit if we get a legit center.

Nice thing about his play....he went to his strengths which was setting hard picks and covering the paint.

112288

tjmakz wrote:The flagrant against Collins is now always being called a flagrant. If a defender comes down hard with one or both hands and hits the offensive player in the head, it is a flagrant, even if the defender got a considerable part of the ball.

And you are OK with that?

mrkleen09 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:The flagrant against Collins is now always being called a flagrant. If a defender comes down hard with one or both hands and hits the offensive player in the head, it is a flagrant, even if the defender got a considerable part of the ball.

And you are OK with that?

Yes. I don't think you should be able to come down hard onto someone's head even if you get part of the ball.
The league rightfully is protecting players when hard fouls are committed above the shoulders.

This gets into a grey area of the game. If you do not exert enough downward pressure on a potential block.......the ball may go in. If you looked closely......the ball and not Collins arms hit the player.

I say on review it just should have been a foul....nothing else.

The proof of what was going on with the refs last night was towards the end when they called a quick foul on KG's block when it was clear as day that Kg had all ball.

Oh and how about the blocking foul on Collins when it was clearly a charge!
Get glasses for the ref's for X'Mas!!!!!!

112288

tjmakz wrote:Yes. I don't think you should be able to come down hard onto someone's head even if you get part of the ball.
The league rightfully is protecting players when hard fouls are committed above the shoulders.

Have you ever played basketball TJ?

If a player goes up for a layup or dunk with the ball positioned over his head...and you block his shot, it is should be immaterial if you hit him with your follow through. It is the exact same thing as a big man who ties up a smaller player and the smaller guy gets knocked down due to the force of being stuffed. Is that a flagrant because the guard falls down hard?

That play last night wasnt even a foul, but even if I were to concede it was - it CLEARLY is not a flagrant foul. You really think Jason Collins says he is going to say - I want to hurt Thompson, but just to make it more challenging I am going to hit the ball first? Give me a break.

kleen,

I played basketball through high school, coached my son and daughters teams for 5 years and I am the commissioner of the mens league that I play in every week.

The play against Collins was a foul and a flagrant. A defensive player is responsible for his body even after the shot is released. If a defender blocks a shot and runs into the offensive player, it is a foul on the defender, even though he blocked the shot. This is not like the rule in the NFL when a defender blocks a punt and runs into the punter there is no penalty. The offensive players follow through is considered part of the shot attempt.

Collins came down very hard with two arms on Thompson. Ball or not, you can't use that as an excuse to hit a player in the head, whether it is intentional or not intentional.

112288 wrote:This gets into a grey area of the game. If you do not exert enough downward pressure on a potential block.......the ball may go in. If you looked closely......the ball and not Collins arms hit the player.

I say on review it just should have been a foul....nothing else.

The proof of what was going on with the refs last night was towards the end when they called a quick foul on KG's block when it was clear as day that Kg had all ball.

Oh and how about the blocking foul on Collins when it was clearly a charge!
Get glasses for the ref's for X'Mas!!!!!!

112288

Sorry, the rule is clear that what Collins did is a flagrant foul.

If you look at the KG foul call again slowly, you will see that he hit Thompson on the right arm.

I would agree that the blocking foul called on Collins (I think) should have been called an offensive foul.

That is bullshit and another example of the NBA watering down the game. When you get the ball first...it is a clean play. ALWAYS has been.

Makes no difference what the clowns at the NBA feel about it. And if I was Doc, Collins get the game ball for plays like that...and the team should pay his fine.

Would you feel the same way if it was Green being hit like that by Varajeo?

I don't even agree that he got "all ball". I think he got part of the ball.
That has always been a foul.

It does make a difference how the league and referees feel about it. They make and enforce the rules.

Teams are not allowed to pay the fines for players. The fines are deducted from their paychecks.

Flagrant Fouls:
These fouls are considered unnecessary and/or excessive. There are two types of flagrant foul, 1 and 2. A flagrant foul 1 is unnecessary contact. This is usually when a defensive player winds-up and makes hard contact with the offensive player or makes hard contact and then follows through. A flagrant foul 2 has the components of a flagrant foul 1 and is unnecessary and excessive contact. This usually has a wind-up motion, hard contact and a follow through. Both fouls carry a penalty of two free throws and the team that was fouled retains possession. A flagrant foul 2 also results in an ejection of the player committing the foul once it is reviewed by instant replay. A player also is ejected if he commits two flagrant foul penalty 1’s in the same game.

The League Office will consider the following factors (as well as any other relevant facts and circumstances) in determining whether to classify a foul as Flagrant "1" or Flagrant "2", to reclassify a flagrant foul, or to impose a fine and/or suspension on the player involved:

1. The severity of the contact;
2. Whether or not the player was making a
legitimate basketball play (e.g., whether a player is making a legitimate effort to block a shot; note, however, that a foul committed during a block attempt can still be considered flagrant if other criteria are present such as recklessness and hard contact to the head);

http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html

And your part in bold is just stupid - and was never a part of basketball at any level in the past.

You play hard, you go for the block, sometimes someone gets hit as a result. This isnt a girls CYO game...its the NBA for god sake.

Too many bogus rules like this one take the refs attention away from the real issues like how often people take 3 steps and carry the ball on a crossover dribble. The NBA should be focusing on things that give one player an unfair advantage over another, instead of all this nitpicking.

I will agree that the rules have changed to protect the offensive players.
You might not like the NBA this way, but I am happy that the league now comes down hard on dangerous plays.

The flagrant rules are relatively new but it has always been a foul when you hit a player during his follow through, it is a foul. With the Thompson/Collins flagrant call, it wasn't even his follow through, he had the ball in his hands.

You would rather the league focus more on crossover dribbles then player safety? Hitting players in the head is nitpicking?

The rules are the rules. I don't think we should say they are stupid because we weren't 1) aware of the rule and 2) don't like the rule.

If the people in the modern NBA are so much bigger, stronger, faster than the old timers....why do they need so many rules to "protect them"

Maybe they play ball different in Tampa...but in Boston when you got stuffed and the guy blocking the shot also hit you in the head....you picked your ass up off the floor, and next time - he got a pump fake and an you went under him...putting him on his ass. You dont need to try and adjudicate all the physicality out of the game. It is a supposed to be a contact sport.

As for your little "rules are the rules" - you contradict your own first sentence. If the rules change every few years, than NO the rules are NOT the rules.