Checking In On The Dallas Draft Pick

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob I should have been more accurate in my descriptions, I want Gobert taking on all comers in the lane and beyond, not just at the rim, where I don't want him is out at the 3 point line and I don't see Duncan or Bogut there too often either. As we have seen Kelly's offense is not there all nights, so 60-70% of the time hes giving you nothing, ever see how many 2 rebound games he has? At least Gobert will always put out effort on defense, its much more consistent than KO's offense. Utah used to have a starting center with better offense than KO, Kantor, who also was a defensive liability, though not as weak as Kelly, they got rid of Kantor to go with Gobert.

Are you telling me we are better NOW with KO and Young than if we had Gobert and Hood? just lay it out, don't talk hoops like a politician!!!

I think we'd be better with Gobert and Hood than we would be with Zeller and Young.


bob


.

okay.....you meant KO

hey bob, glad you cut out and missed the game, KO would have given you agita. This game shows excactly what we have in KO, he scored 8 points in 1st quarter with some clever offense and a few 3's, then completely disappears, finishes with 0 rebounds and his usual non impactful defense. KO's occasional offensive outbursts are not frequent enough to overcome his defensive shortcomings. Its so obvious in a tight physical intense playoff game, which are coming up, I wouldn't want that kind of ineffective player on the floor. It is so obvious to me how much more Gobert's length and defense can impact a game more than KO's game and occasional offensive competence.....okay he ran the floor for 2 once, which you mentioned on the Game On thread, hit a couple 3's and did nothing both ends when Blazers took control at end of 3rd and beginning of 4th. Zero rebounds? not the kind of player I want to go to war with.

cowens/oldschool wrote:hey bob, glad you cut out and missed the game, KO would have given you agita. This game shows excactly what we have in KO, he scored 8 points in 1st quarter with some clever offense and a few 3's, then completely disappears, finishes with 0 rebounds and his usual non impactful defense. KO's occasional offensive outbursts are not frequent enough to overcome his defensive shortcomings. Its so obvious in a tight physical intense playoff game, which are coming up, I wouldn't want that kind of ineffective player on the floor. It is so obvious to me how much more Gobert's length and defense can impact a game more than KO's game and occasional offensive competence.....okay he ran the floor for 2 once, which you mentioned on the Game On thread, hit a couple 3's and did nothing both ends when Blazers took control at end of 3rd and beginning of 4th. Zero rebounds? not the kind of player I want to go to war with.

Now in his third year, KO's rebouding has gotten worse every season:

Rebounds per 36 min 2013-14 - 9.39
Rebounds per 36 min 2014-15 - 7.67
Rebounds per 36 min 2015-16 - 7.29

Most players improve their game in their formative years. KO's assists haven't improved, his free throw pct. was 81.1% his rookie year, 72.9% now. Three point shooting is up a bit from 35% to 41% but that's it. His turnovers slightly better, steals and blocks slightly worse. But very poor rebounding numbers for a 7 footer. He doesn't create enough offense to offset all his other shortcomings. Will be a perennial 20 minute per game back up at this level of his game. At best.

That's what I figured, guys. As with all posting, emotion is left to the wayside and interpretation/innuendo takes over. For a second, I had a brief BDC flashback!

I'm glad both of you can handle the high level of argumentation without offending each other.

Now back to discussing!!

db

cowens/oldschool wrote:hey bob, glad you cut out and missed the game, KO would have given you agita. This game shows excactly what we have in KO, he scored 8 points in 1st quarter with some clever offense and a few 3's, then completely disappears, finishes with 0 rebounds and his usual non impactful defense. KO's occasional offensive outbursts are not frequent enough to overcome his defensive shortcomings. Its so obvious in a tight physical intense playoff game, which are coming up, I wouldn't want that kind of ineffective player on the floor. It is so obvious to me how much more Gobert's length and defense can impact a game more than KO's game and occasional offensive competence.....okay he ran the floor for 2 once, which you mentioned on the Game On thread, hit a couple 3's and did nothing both ends when Blazers took control at end of 3rd and beginning of 4th. Zero rebounds? not the kind of player I want to go to war with.

Cow,

You're asking if I'd trade a back up PF/ and a player who has played a total of 528 minutes in almost 2 years for someone's starting center and starting SG. I don't care whose starting center and starting SG you're talking about, you've got 28 other teams to choose from, I'd almost certainly make that trade.

How about starters for starters?

Would you trade Gobert and Hood for Sully and Bradley?


bob


.

bob you stubborn hardhat, it took me how many posts to convince you that Ainge could have very easily made a better pick than KO and Young both years......ALL you guys that worship Danny, he ain't all dat, GET IT GOT IT GOOD.

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:hey bob, glad you cut out and missed the game, KO would have given you agita. This game shows excactly what we have in KO, he scored 8 points in 1st quarter with some clever offense and a few 3's, then completely disappears, finishes with 0 rebounds and his usual non impactful defense. KO's occasional offensive outbursts are not frequent enough to overcome his defensive shortcomings. Its so obvious in a tight physical intense playoff game, which are coming up, I wouldn't want that kind of ineffective player on the floor. It is so obvious to me how much more Gobert's length and defense can impact a game more than KO's game and occasional offensive competence.....okay he ran the floor for 2 once, which you mentioned on the Game On thread, hit a couple 3's and did nothing both ends when Blazers took control at end of 3rd and beginning of 4th. Zero rebounds? not the kind of player I want to go to war with.

Cow,

You're asking if I'd trade a back up PF/ and a player who has played a total of 528 minutes in almost 2 years for someone's starting center and starting SG.  I don't care whose starting center and starting SG you're talking about, you've got 28 other teams to choose from, I'd almost certainly make that trade.

How about starters for starters?  

Would you trade Gobert and Hood for Sully and Bradley?


bob


.

Oh I don't know....I love Bradleys defense and you should have heard Blazer announcers raving about his defense, how he was shutting down Lillard, so defeintely not for Hood , who has a very good offensive game already. I want to see Sully and Gobert play together, I like them both. Boy would this team be stacked and ready for Cleveland RIGHT NOW if Ainge was better at drafting.

ANNOUNCEMENT: BOB HECKLER FINALLY AGREED WITH ME!!!!

steve3344 wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:hey bob, glad you cut out and missed the game, KO would have given you agita. This game shows excactly what we have in KO, he scored 8 points in 1st quarter with some clever offense and a few 3's, then completely disappears, finishes with 0 rebounds and his usual non impactful defense. KO's occasional offensive outbursts are not frequent enough to overcome his defensive shortcomings. Its so obvious in a tight physical intense playoff game, which are coming up, I wouldn't want that kind of ineffective player on the floor. It is so obvious to me how much more Gobert's length and defense can impact a game more than KO's game and occasional offensive competence.....okay he ran the floor for 2 once, which you mentioned on the Game On thread, hit a couple 3's and did nothing both ends when Blazers took control at end of 3rd and beginning of 4th. Zero rebounds? not the kind of player I want to go to war with.

Now in his third year, KO's rebouding has gotten worse every season:

Rebounds per 36 min 2013-14 - 9.39
Rebounds per 36 min 2014-15 - 7.67
Rebounds per 36 min 2015-16 - 7.29

Most players improve their game in their formative years.  KO's assists haven't improved, his free throw pct. was 81.1% his rookie year, 72.9% now.  Three point shooting is up a bit from 35% to 41% but that's it.  His turnovers slightly better, steals and blocks slightly worse.  But very poor rebounding numbers for a 7 footer.  He doesn't create enough offense to offset all his other shortcomings.  Will be a perennial 20 minute per game back up at this level of his game.  At best.

Steve I've always said you should fockin post more.....god damn it.

cowens,

Yes, Danny missed on Gobert, but so did almost every other team.
How do you think Cleveland feels about drafting Anthony Bennett at #1?
Or Porter at 3, Zeller at 4, Len at 5?
That was just a horrendous draft with only 1 potential all-star who was drafted at #15, Giannis Antetokounmpo.

Getting back to the point of this thread, Houston lost a big home game last night to Chicago. It dropped them to 9th place in the West. Things don't get any easier for Houston as they have to play OKC on Sunday, then at Dallas.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:hey bob, glad you cut out and missed the game, KO would have given you agita. This game shows excactly what we have in KO, he scored 8 points in 1st quarter with some clever offense and a few 3's, then completely disappears, finishes with 0 rebounds and his usual non impactful defense. KO's occasional offensive outbursts are not frequent enough to overcome his defensive shortcomings. Its so obvious in a tight physical intense playoff game, which are coming up, I wouldn't want that kind of ineffective player on the floor. It is so obvious to me how much more Gobert's length and defense can impact a game more than KO's game and occasional offensive competence.....okay he ran the floor for 2 once, which you mentioned on the Game On thread, hit a couple 3's and did nothing both ends when Blazers took control at end of 3rd and beginning of 4th. Zero rebounds? not the kind of player I want to go to war with.

Cow,

You're asking if I'd trade a back up PF/ and a player who has played a total of 528 minutes in almost 2 years for someone's starting center and starting SG.  I don't care whose starting center and starting SG you're talking about, you've got 28 other teams to choose from, I'd almost certainly make that trade.

How about starters for starters?  

Would you trade Gobert and Hood for Sully and Bradley?


bob


.

Oh I don't know....I love Bradleys defense and you should have heard Blazer announcers raving about his defense, how he was shutting down Lillard, so defeintely not for Hood , who has a very good offensive game already. I want to see Sully and Gobert play together, I like them both. Boy would this team be stacked and ready for Cleveland RIGHT NOW if Ainge was better at drafting.

Cow,

Oh.  So when the choices aren't a back up and a D-leaguer for two starters you're not as gung ho, huh?  When you have to trade like-for-like then you don't see the Utah roster as being an upgrade. Whatever happened to all that love for Gobert and Hood? What happened is you're not trading a rotation player and a spare part for quality anymore, that's what.

Where's the pace-and-space if you have Sully and Gobert on the floor together, Mr. "I know it's a new NBA"?  Sully's shooting 35% from straightaway beyond the frito line to the 3pt arc.  That's not much range in today's NBA.  Gobert, of course, can't buy a basket if he can't dunk it.  On defense, if Sully goes into the low blocks and Gobert goes high post NOBODY will follow Gobert out there. They'll sandwich Sully because Gobert is useless outside 4'. On offense they will run their fat (in Sully's case), or skinny (in Gobert's case), legs off. Easy buckets because your two staunch defenders won't be anywhere near the ball. They'll still be laboring to get over mid-court as the ball goes through the net.

You are asking for a team that clogs the paint, like the old NBA did, not like the new NBA is going.  You keep saying that you "get it" but you keep wanting to build a team as if you don't.  


What this really is, and has been, is just your normal bitch about Danny's drafting.  That's why you are matching up Gobert with Kelly and Hood with Young. You're like a dog with a bone, you just won't let it go.

What I never seem to be able to get you to do is to acknowledge that when players like Gobert (#27) and Jordan (#35) turn out well they are the exceptions to the rule.  Most players picked that low do not make it, a very low percentage.  Pointing out that Danny missed that needle in the haystack is fine but then you should look at every other GM who missed it too and wonder if drafting isn't as reliable a science, once you get past the first few picks, you seem to believe it is or should be.  How many teams could have picked those players but didn't?  Gobert was drafted by the Nuggets who traded him on draft day.  Danny traded for Leon Powe (#49)and Big Baby (#35) and Rondo (#21) on draft day.  How about giving Danny some credit for those?  He drafted Bradley, the guy you wouldn't give up for Hood, as a one-and-doner out of Texas at 19.  He drafted Sully, your guy.  How about balancing the books by giving him some credit for those?

Rudy Gobert is 7'1", 245#, with a 7'8+ wingspan.  Walter Tavares is 7'3", 265#, with a 7'9" wingspan.  Tavares was drafted #45 and is in the D-league.  If it's all about size and beef and wingspan, then he should have been a lottery pick and starting in the NBA right now, right?

I love you Cowens, I really do, but you are the Annointed King of Woulda/Coulda/Shouldas.  I'm amazed you don't have serious cervical issues given how much you look backwards.


bob


.

This is what Olynyk did last time we played the (undefeated) Warriors. 28 points, basically playing MVP candidate Draymond Green to a draw, and carrying the Celtics to double overtime.



Olynyk played 17 minutes last night. You say he disappeared after the first quarter? Probably because he only played a handful of minutes the rest of the game.

Keep in mind Olynyk is coming back from a partially dislocated shoulder. He's probably still favoring it, but at least he's back on the court shooting 3s. He's definitely been playing like a pussy since he came back with the fragile shoulder.

I missed the second half because I had a bad stream, but Zeller didn't even play, which means Olynyk's minutes were probably all at center. Portland's centers didn't score much the whole game, so I don't think it was Olynyk who was getting roasted in the few second half minutes he probably played.

Olynyk is back up to 11th best 3 point % in the NBA.
http://stats.nba.com/leaders/#!/?PerMode=Totals&StatCategory=FG3_PCT

Dirk only shot as well from 3 as Olynyk is now three times in his career, and all 3 time where when he shot less threes than Olynyk has already taken this year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

Olynyk's shoulder probably won't be right the rest of the season, but at least he's out there, and knocking down shots, and spreading the floor.

It's not his fault the Celtics don't have a single legit center besides Sully, at 6'9.

Another thing that's annoyed me all season. The Celtics' "point guards" like Smart and Turner almost always seem to freeze Olynyk out. Olynyk will be wide open for a three, but Turner will have tunnel vision iso-ing his man, and even when Olynyk is hot from 3, Smart would rather jack up a 3 than feed the (open) hot hand.

No wonder Olynyk misses Pressey so much. Pressey knew how to feed the hot hand and keep him going. Even IT isn't great at feeding the hot hand, even when he's having an off shooting night.

It took me the longest time to figure out what cowens was trying to say with all these interminable posts about Bogert and the Perk trade, etc., etc., etc. It wasn't until wideclyde's observation that maybe we should blame Tree Rollins for Danny's blindspot when it comes to big men, that I finally got it.

Jajuan Johnson, Fab Melo, James Young, Kelly Olynpic - what do all these players have in common? Lack of toughness. It's as if toughness wasn't even taken into consideration when they were evaluated.

And the Perk trade, heaven help us, is conclusive evidence that Danny doesn't get that aspect of the game. When Perk went to Oklahoma, the toughness went out of the team like air out a balloon. Now, the current roster has quite a few players who will throw themselves on the floor for loose balls and stand tall and take a charge, but only one has the cojones to go chest to chest will a big bully like Cousins. That would be Marcus Smart, of course. Five gods bless all six foot four inches of him.

The Celtics have traditionally been the toughest team in the league, from Russ to Big Red to Larry to KG. Remember Zaza Pachulia? How about the series when Larry called out his teammates, leading to the infamous clotheslining of Kurt Rambis? That series was won by toughness; both teams readily admitted it. The tragic thing is that Danny, who was there, doesn't seem to remember.

Lastly, maybe cow hasn't noticed, but Bogert turns into yogurt in the key moments of games. Give me a player who rises to the challenge, who gets better when the going gets tough. There's that word again.

Danny drafting Giddens over DeAndre Jordan was absolutely inexcusable, even back then. Danny and Doc were riding high from the Championship just days earlier, and didn't do their draft research. They also probably figured that Jordan would be drafted earlier, and so they Locked In on a lesser guy with terrible intangibles that would have been spotted with due diligence.

Even Mario Chalmers would have been a much better pick than Giddens, and Chalmers was coming off a super clutch shooting NCAA Title.

Either Jordan OR Chalmers probably would have led to another title or two, and both were considered top 20 picks that year.


But all told, the Celtics right now sit in as good a position as any team in the NBA, with the (probable) exception of Golden State.

We just have a hole at center. And Mason Plumlee was acquired for the 22nd pick last year. Just imagine what the 15th pick +19th pick + 31st pick could get us.

Cow isn't the only one who should have neck issues. I think I have whiplash from all the turns this thread has taken.

rickdavisakaspike wrote:
Lastly, maybe cow hasn't noticed, but Bogert turns into yogurt in the key moments of games. Give me a player who rises to the challenge, who gets better when the going gets tough. There's that word again.

I'm confused -- you're talking about Gobert, not Bogut, right? Because I don't think anyone has accused Bogut of not having toughness.

Now my neck hurts and my head hurts.

arambone wrote:Danny drafting Giddens over DeAndre Jordan was absolutely inexcusable, even back then.

That's some revisionist history. There were big questions about whether Jordan could cut it in the NBA. He played only one season of college ball at Texas A&M, and he was hardly impressive. He played only 20 minutes per game, averaging 7.9 points and 6.0 rebounds. He had character and maturity issues.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/17/sports/ncaabasketball/17jordan.html?_r=0

The DraftExpress reports compiled prior to the draft acknowledged his athleticism but raised red flags all over the place.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/DeAndre-Jordan-1072

His first couple of years with the Clippers, Jordan was relegated to a bit role, and there were questions about whether the Clippers had wasted their pick on him.

He was one of so many guys who came into the league with incredible physical gifts, and most of those guys never make it. J.R. Giddens had incredible physical gifts, too. Saying Ainge should've known that Jordan would make it but Giddens wouldn't is just not true.

arambone wrote:This is what Olynyk did last time we played the (undefeated) Warriors. 28 points, basically playing MVP candidate Draymond Green to a draw, and carrying the Celtics to double overtime.



Olynyk played 17 minutes last night. You say he disappeared after the first quarter? Probably because he only played a handful of minutes the rest of the game.

Keep in mind Olynyk is coming back from a partially dislocated shoulder. He's probably still favoring it, but at least he's back on the court shooting 3s. He's definitely been playing like a pussy since he came back with the fragile shoulder.

I missed the second half because I had a bad stream, but Zeller didn't even play, which means Olynyk's minutes were probably all at center. Portland's centers didn't score much the whole game, so I don't think it was Olynyk who was getting roasted in the few second half minutes he probably played.

Olynyk is back up to 11th best 3 point % in the NBA.
http://stats.nba.com/leaders/#!/?PerMode=Totals&StatCategory=FG3_PCT

Dirk only shot as well from 3 as Olynyk is now three times in his career, and all 3 time where when he shot less threes than Olynyk has already taken this year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

Olynyk's shoulder probably won't be right the rest of the season, but at least he's out there, and knocking down shots, and spreading the floor.

It's not his fault the Celtics don't have a single legit center besides Sully, at 6'9.

rambone,

"Portland's centers didn't score much the whole game, so I don't think it was Olynyk who was getting roasted in the few second half minutes he probably played."   Good point.

Plumlee, 25 minutes, 11 points.
Davis, 22 minutes, 4 points.
Vonleh, 9 minutes, 7 points.

Where is this Portland domination by the centers people are talking about?  They scored 22 points.  Sully, Kelly and Amir combined for 30.

Kelly played under 10 minutes in the first half.  He played 17 total.  That means he played, call it, 8 minutes the entire 2nd half, 7 1/2 of them in the 3rd quarter.  The 3rd was a 27-25 quarter for Portland.  We gave up 2 points in the 3rd quarter, on the road, with Kelly playing over half of that quarter, and giving up 27 points isn't that bad.

We gave up 35 points and scored 26 in the 4th quarter.  Kelly played exactly :29 in the 4th quarter, specifically, the final :29.  How is our crappy defense that gave up 35 points in a quarter the fault of a guy who played less than half a minute and that was when the game was already put away?

People see what they want to see.  Some hard stats like rebounding, are not so helpful anymore in this space-and-pace era where bigs are outside and there's gang rebounding and more rebounding by guards, too many factors and variables as traditional roles are changing, but concrete things like "minutes played" are pretty solid.  You played, or you didn't.

IT was 6-21.  How come nobody is talking about that as being why we lost?  What's this obsession about blaming every loss on Kelly?

Who killed us was Aminu.  He is averaging 10.0ppg this season, he went off for 28 last night.  He plays SF, not PF or C. Should we should trade our SFs...?


bob

.

KO's +/- was really bad in his 17 minutes last night, and I'm not trying to claim he had a good game, but I just can't see where he was getting destroyed. Definitely must have missed on some rebounds.

Something bad happened while he was on the court, I just don't know that it was largely attributable to him.

Picking the winners in the draft is a piece of cake. Amateur General Managers seem to do a much better job than their professional counterparts. Unfortunately they tend to make their selections months or years after a player has developed a statistical history. It seems that hindsight is a great way to justify ones opinion. Maybe the board should start a thread this coming draft where members can select those late round picks that they consider to be highly under valued. It would be interesting to view how these selections turn out in future years.

swish

swish wrote:Picking the winners in the draft is a piece of cake. Amateur General Managers seem to do a much better job than their professional counterparts.  Unfortunately they tend to make their selections months or years after a player has developed a statistical history. It seems that hindsight is a great way to justify ones opinion. Maybe the board should start a thread this coming draft where members can select those late round picks that they consider to be highly under valued. It would be interesting to view how these selections turn out in future years.

 swish

That Swish is a great idea!

Over an extended period of time I believe one can get an idea of how good a GM is at evaluating and drafting talent, but there will always be a degree of luck and unpredictability to it. In the short run pretty close to a crap shoot trying to evaluate 19 year old players.

BobC

"In the short run pretty close to a crap shoot trying to evaluate 19 year old players."

I agree with your above statement especially in regards to draft picks from about #20 and beyond unless of course your making the pick a year or so later.

swish

bob

On Sully and Gobert playing together, does Amir Johnson have a 3 point game? does he have a post up game? why is he starting ahead of Kelly? do you think KO should start and get more minutes because he has a 3 point shot? Amir starts because he is our best rim protector and a good overall defender, so Coach Stevens values rim protection and defense over Kellys occasional offensive outbursts. I think he knows way more about basketball than you and me combined, what he forgot and threw away, we don't even know, but his knowledge must be immense to get to this level of coaching and I've said before he has us overachieving and its a credit to his coaching ability the record we have and how far the team plays over their talent level. If Coach Stevens is going with defense over offense in the case of Amir and Kelly or Zeller, thats fine with me. Now on to Gobert, his defense and rebounding ability is much better and stronger than Amir's and I like Amir, I'm not bashing him, Gobert is a defensive force in the conversation with the top 2 or 3 at the 5 position in the league. Do you think he could help us there? Dumb question, but I think with how good we are on the perimeter and wing defensively, and with a load/power player like Sully, having a top defensive 5 like Gobert would easily make this an elite defense, possibly historic, like the 86 or 08 defense. Actually I loved the 73 Celtics D too, I don't think they get enough credit for defense, but in their era they were one of the best. So like I explained we have Amir starting now, he doesn't get too many plays run for him, but there is a reason he starts over KO, so Gobert's offense wouldn't be worth all this fear mongering your bringing up, it wouldn't ruin the team.

Another thing, on another post you called Gobert a plodder, I disagree, Marc Gasol is a plodder, so was Greg Kite and Eric Montross and Luc Longley. Gobert is very active on defense, he competes and gets after it, he covers alot of space, and for a skinny guy he still throws his body around and constantly makes effort plays, challenges shots, alters them and blocks some and he'll surprise you by running the floor.....at least you acknowledged hes a starter and Kellys a back up, but its obvious how impactful his defense and rebounding are and comparing his game to KO's overall game is a joke.

I'll give Danny credit for some good trades, spike has a good point about the intangible, toughness, for a skinny guy Gobert has it, obviously we wish KO had it, but some things your either born with it or not born with it. Yeah GS jacks up alot of 3's, but they have Igoudala, Green, Bogut, Ezeli, they have the necessary toughness, even Stephon Curry is tough and will get after it and get in your face. So you can still be an elite defensive team with a power player like Sully and a defensive predator like Gobert and add the pace and space pieces around them to win today, look at Spurs, they start 2 dinosaurs at 4-5 their record is pretty good.....if only fockin Danny pulled the trigger on Gobert that damn year.

cow

rickdavisakaspike wrote:It took me the longest time to figure out what cowens was trying to say with all these interminable posts about Bogert and the Perk trade, etc., etc., etc.  It wasn't until wideclyde's observation that maybe we should blame Tree Rollins for Danny's blindspot when it comes to big men, that I finally got it.

Jajuan Johnson, Fab Melo, James Young, Kelly Olynpic - what do all these players have in common?  Lack of toughness.  It's as if toughness wasn't even taken into consideration when they were evaluated.

And the Perk trade, heaven help us, is conclusive evidence that Danny doesn't get that aspect of the game.  When Perk went to Oklahoma, the toughness went out of the team like air out a balloon.  Now, the current roster has quite a few players who will throw themselves on the floor for loose balls and stand tall and take a charge, but only one has the cojones to go chest to chest will a big bully like Cousins.  That would be Marcus Smart, of course.  Five gods bless all six foot four inches of him.

The Celtics have traditionally been the toughest team in the league, from Russ to Big Red to Larry to KG.  Remember Zaza Pachulia?  How about the series when Larry called out his teammates, leading to the infamous clotheslining of Kurt Rambis?  That series was won by toughness; both teams readily admitted it.  The tragic thing is that Danny, who was there, doesn't seem to remember.

Lastly, maybe cow hasn't noticed, but Bogert turns into yogurt in the key moments of games.  Give me a player who rises to the challenge, who gets better when the going gets tough.  There's that word again.

Spike! Good to see you on here, hope all is well!

Outside wrote:Cow isn't the only one who should have neck issues. I think I have whiplash from all the turns this thread has taken.

rickdavisakaspike wrote:
Lastly, maybe cow hasn't noticed, but Bogert turns into yogurt in the key moments of games. Give me a player who rises to the challenge, who gets better when the going gets tough. There's that word again.

I'm confused -- you're talking about Gobert, not Bogut, right? Because I don't think anyone has accused Bogut of not having toughness.

Now my neck hurts and my head hurts.

This is unfreakingbelievable. My first post in months and what do I get? Ridicule. Cheapshots, sneaky, slimey cheapshots, from the same guy whose sniping attacks chased me off the board six months ago. What is it with you, Outside? Are you channeling your inner Laimbeer? Haven't you ever heard of conviviality? It's something we cultivate here, as opposed to say, public humiliation.

Here's a clue for you, Outside: I'm not going to quietly accept any more of your bullying. I took it before because I didn't consider you worth arguing with, but from now on, every time you try it, I'm going to call you on it.

Cowens and bobh poke fun at each other because they're old friends and it's all innocent and good-natured. That's why bobh can get away with telling cowens he should have neck issues.

But you, of all people, have no right to make fun of me or anybody else on this board. You know nothing of me and what I know of you doesn't bear repeating.

So, in the interests of conviviality, l'lll lend you a little advice, because I believe it explains exactly what your problem is: God don't like ugly.