does Ainge need to make a trade now?

after spending some time this morning watching various talking heads and reading Celtic centric articles from around the web, many seem to feel that the time is now AE (after Embiid) for Ainge to finally trade for that big body who can help inside.

many seem to be awestruck by that huge TPE Ainge is holding from the Hayward "trade" and I see /watch talk about Drummond being strong right now.

So I figure maybe a thread about what members here think/feel/dream as options or maybe you feel the team is fine as it is and just needs everyone healthy to be ready for the big time later this year.

as always whatever anyone posts here will be run through the ringer both for cap viability and whether a new player is actually an upgrade.

A couple key cap points (at least to me):

the TPE is $28.5M Ainge also has two smaller ones at $4.7M and $2.5M. I don't think TPE's can be combined or added to toehr players. So that means the TPE can only be for a player. Whatever else Ainges sends a team to get him will be another side deal and still have to meet salary cap rules.

The Celtics currently sit at about $13.4M UNDER the tax line for this season, I feel the team will do anything to stay under the tax line this season, but others may feel that is no concern for the owners.



so what ideas are stirring  if any here?

kdp,

TPEs cannot be combined.  So Danny cannot add the two smaller TPEs together to get a more expensive player.

TPEs can, I believe, be used for multiple players.  Danny can use $10M of the big TPE to get a player and the rest on an(other) player(s).

We may be under the tax line but we are at the limit for roster spots.  Some player(s) must go for any TPE uses this year.  Next season, of course, they can not resign this player or that, or trade 2-for-1, and open up spots like that.

Moving on to specific players I'm not excited by Drummond.  He is a historically poor frito shooter, which means he can't be in the game in crunch time, and he doesn't like to go out to the arc to defend.  So, how does that help us against an Embiid or Jokic or Vucevic or any player not named Kanter, Nurkic (who's done for the season anyway), Howard and Drummond (Drummond defending Drummond)?  He's a dinosaur in today's NBA.  Add on top of that he's an Unrestricted Free Agent after this year and I'm seeing trading for him like putting a bandaid onto road rash from a motorcycle accident.  Sure, he'll cover up the ugliness of the scabs but won't do a thing for the dislocated elbow or broken collarbone.

We're still in 4th place in the east, despite losing two games to Philly without Tatum.  Imagine what those final scores would be like if they didn't have Embiid or Simmons?  Oh, wait a second, we know what they're like, we saw them without Simmons in the bubble playoffs and we swept them.  The sky isn't falling.


Bob


.

I was trying to say that TPE's cannot be combined and i think you can't add players to them either. so they can only be used for a player by themselves.

I don't like Drummond myself that much and his salary is just a bit OVER that TPE from Hayward. So he would appear to out from that perspective anyway.

I think I feel better than most about adding Thompson with Theis and Rob Williams as our big men this year. Even after they all got abused by Embiid.

though lots of what i have been reading/seeing is about upgrading our bigs somhow.

But i see we have more of a need for a scorer off the bench now, even with Walker looking like his old self.

a player like T. Ross -Orl would it nicely in that TPE at $13.5M and keep the team under the tax line.

we'd have to make a another deal with them sending one of Nesmith, Langford , Teague or even Prichard for a bag of chips (second round pick not likely to convey) to make it worth them sending us Ross.

downside to Ross is he two more years after this at salarys of $12.5M and $11.5M

just one idea for now

J. Lamb from Indiana is another scoring wing in the Ross mode

he makes $10.5M and fits into the TPE easy and keeps us under the tax line.

we send them Langford or Nesmith for a TPE that they have of $4.7M

Lamb has one more year after this one at $10.5M

like in the Ross deal, they are about Orl or Ind wanting to move off the older higher priced players for younger cheaper ones.

I would like to reiterate here what I posted in the Harden deal to make a certain point:

Vankisa wrote:Would have loved for Danny to wiggle into this deal like the Cavs manager did...

I mean getting Jared Allen and Tauren Prince is near perfect pick ups imo. (I mean for the Celtics not the Cavs )

And Cavaliers contributed:
1 first round pick from Bucks 2022 (25-30 pick)
1 second round pick (own 2024)
Dante Exum

Am I missing something from that deal or Cleveland got 1 good Wing that can defend and shoot and 1 great young center and gave up? A Brad Wannamaker and some pocket change picks?
EDIT: Just to calrify what I mean. Taurean Prince is a better player than Semi and Jared Alen is better than RWill or Gwill or Theis, probably better than TT. Also both of them have a better upside. And DAnny could have used the TPE to absorb the 12-13M salary of Prince right?
Well done by Cleveland!
...

This combined with the piece on Danny+ Mike Zarren's reps as one of the first calls to make when looking for more than a 2 team trade leads me to believe that Danny DID NOT WANT to get into that trade. OR at least this seems like the likely scenario.
It seems to me that he just does not want to deal right now... And also agree with kdp that it seems management does not want to pay up into the cap.

I know we like to think our team is great, but realistically I do not see us even reaching ECF let alone the Finals with the roster as currently constructed. My point being already posted in the same thread from above in the following:

Vankisa wrote:
...
2. While I also think chemistry is an important factor I also think replacing key role players with better ones is how one ultimately takes the step from "contender" to "champion". I believe the Celtics had great chemistry in the Bubble and overall last season. I do not see a new banner however. And let us be honest - do you think that the team as currently constructed can win it all? We certainly have the main pieces set, but... "contender" to "champion"... This is why I would take an upgrade to key role players between 6-10 if it can be had and leave the chemistry to the team to figure out. Specifically this early in the season.
...

To sum up my opinion regarding the need to make a trade now:
1. Ainge's TT and JT acquisitions while looking good on paper have been underwhelming at best (JT is to me quite a useless piece at the moment, easily replaced by XYZ rookie we have)
2. The time for a trade has come and gone without Ainge doing anything which leads me to believe he WANTS to keep the team as is
3. I agree about Christian Wood or Collins if Atlanta situation gets some more drama or any of those younger 5s or 4s. We do not need to stop Embiid 1v1, we have done quite well to get him tired and doubled as long as we had enough good wing defenders to pull it off. TT was supposed to be the 1v1 Embiid stopper, but I do not see him doing better than Theis honestly... which leads me to question his time on the floor in any other circumstance as well. I wish we could go either smaller with Bam. Collins type of players at 4-5 or go younger/better at 5.
4. I am feeling more and more like this might be a lost year for our JxJ window. I mean the Js are playing like stud winners that CAN get you a trophy. But not alone as has been proven time and time again. And that is on squarely on Danny Ainge's shoulders (of course the 2 Js are as well so... )

kdp59 wrote:J. Lamb from Indiana is another scoring wing in the Ross mode

he makes $10.5M and fits into the TPE easy and keeps us under the tax line.

we send them  Langford or Nesmith for a TPE that they have of $4.7M

Lamb has one more year after this one at $10.5M

like in the Ross deal, they are about Orl or Ind wanting to move off the older higher priced players for younger cheaper ones.

A wing that can score and defend would be a great addition as our role players need a boost.

Nesmith is a 14 pick that has played more or less no minutes. Would anyone take him and/or Langford that has more injury days than healthy ones since he has been in the NBA?

Vankisa

missing out on Allen was a tough one for me too, but I guess Ainge wasn't really in the loop on that one.

I also am with you on the Teague signing, which i thought was a good one at the time (especially with Kemba starting the year on the shelf). Teague has been underwhelming to say to the least but he is on basically a vet minimum deal. Ainge would have been better off keeping Wanamaker I regret to say now.

Wood isn't being moved by Houston iMO and I don't think he'd do much on this team anyway. I have talked about Collins in the past as a young target. But everything i read now, says Atlanta may end up moving him as they don't see him as a max extension guy. But I guess he thinks he is. That would be hard for the Celtics to have FOUR max players next season with Collins and Collins has yet to be come a very good defender.


I still see Thompson as a pretty big upgrade over Kanter from last year and Slightly better than Theis as well. So IMO Ainge upgraded two spots with the Thompson signing (TT over Theis and Theis over Kanter). Of course as I said I also liked the Teague signing , so my thoughts may be foggy to say the elast.

I don't think we've seen the best of this team yet and we won't until Kemba is fully back (close) and Tatum and brown are healthy also. Are we good enough as is to beat Philly , Mil and the nets? Time may tell that one if Ainge stands pat.

Brooklyn traded Jerome Allen because that's what they needed to do to get Harden.  If Allen and LeVert weren't the price of the deal they would still be in Brooklyn, neither of them were being shopped.  Would you have given up a J for Harden?  I wouldn't.  Would you have given up Kemba for Harden?  On chemistry level alone that would be disasterous, I believe.  If you say "no to Harden but yes to Allen" that still doesn't work because in order to get into that deal you have to grease the wheels with players other GMs would want as part of the Harden deal.  Which Celtic would Cleveland or Indy accept as their payment in the Harden deal, because without Allen going to Cleveland the deal falls through?  So, to say that Danny was somehow asleep at the switch because he didn't wiggle his way into the middle of this and snag a key piece, underestimates the complex balancing act in a multi-team (in this case 4 team) trade.  Everybody wants to give up unwanted spare parts for a legit NBA starter.  


Bob


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Point of clarification. With our TPE, we still have to give up players but the salaries don't have to match? How does that work? Thanks, guys and gal!

db

bobheckler wrote:Brooklyn traded Jerome Allen because that's what they needed to do to get Harden.  If Allen and LeVert weren't the price of the deal they would still be in Brooklyn, neither of them were being shopped.  Would you have given up a J for Harden?  I wouldn't.  Would you have given up Kemba for Harden?  On chemistry level alone that would be disasterous, I believe.  If you say "no to Harden but yes to Allen" that still doesn't work because in order to get into that deal you have to grease the wheels with players other GMs would want as part of the Harden deal.  Which Celtic would Cleveland or Indy accept as their payment in the Harden deal, because without Allen going to Cleveland the deal falls through?  So, to say that Danny was somehow asleep at the switch because he didn't wiggle his way into the middle of this and snag a key piece, underestimates the complex balancing act in a multi-team (in this case 4 team) trade.  Everybody wants to give up unwanted spare parts for a legit NBA starter.  


Bob

.

Hi Bob,

not sure I get your point here - I was referring to my disappointment that Ainge, despite apparently being highly regarded for being willing and able to participate and facilitate multi-team deals, could not get into that deal in Cleveland's place. I do not believe anyone around here believe a trade for Harden was in any way a good move for the Celtics. But getting Jarret Allen AND Taurean Prince for Dante Exum and pocket change?

You can look in my quote above, it seems to me Cleveland got a super deal by being the facilitator and I certainly think we have more assets that are expendable than what they offered to the table. Unless you want to tell me Dante Exum was a long coveted player in Huston?

Ainge not participating for me is a sign that maybe he did not WANT to participate. Which reminds me of the multiple years now where he kept his hoarded picks and did not make a move and the fact after our 2 studs, Marcus and Kemba we are quite thin in all departments so I did and still do think Ainge should have and should try to use every tool he has to upgrade this team NOW and not wait for next year as he seems to have set his mind to.

dbrown4 wrote:Point of clarification.  With our TPE, we still have to give up players but the salaries don't have to match?  How does that work?  Thanks, guys and gal!

db

As far as I understand it we can effectively absorb almost any salary with the TPE in a trade, or you know up to 28.5M. The other team needs to agree to a trade however as it is a "TRADE" exception. How we entice them to do that, picks, players etc. is the big question behind using the TPE (apart from the CAP ramifications, which I also think are a major issue for Celtics' owners).

Just for the record. Chemistry Memistry. I certainly would’ve done Kemba for Harden but thats come and gone.
Just wondering how many here still think getting Teague and not keeping Wanamaker was an upgrade?

Question: Is there no way on this God’s Celtics green earth we can get Karl Anthony Towns? Minnesota is a loser and a sucker so what would it take?

Vankisa wrote:

bobheckler wrote:Brooklyn traded Jerome Allen because that's what they needed to do to get Harden.  If Allen and LeVert weren't the price of the deal they would still be in Brooklyn, neither of them were being shopped.  Would you have given up a J for Harden?  I wouldn't.  Would you have given up Kemba for Harden?  On chemistry level alone that would be disasterous, I believe.  If you say "no to Harden but yes to Allen" that still doesn't work because in order to get into that deal you have to grease the wheels with players other GMs would want as part of the Harden deal.  Which Celtic would Cleveland or Indy accept as their payment in the Harden deal, because without Allen going to Cleveland the deal falls through?  So, to say that Danny was somehow asleep at the switch because he didn't wiggle his way into the middle of this and snag a key piece, underestimates the complex balancing act in a multi-team (in this case 4 team) trade.  Everybody wants to give up unwanted spare parts for a legit NBA starter.  


Bob

.

Hi Bob,

not sure I get your point here - I was referring to my disappointment that Ainge, despite apparently being highly regarded for being willing and able to participate and facilitate multi-team deals, could not get into that deal in Cleveland's place. I do not believe anyone around here believe a trade for Harden was in any way a good move for the Celtics. But getting Jarret Allen AND Taurean Prince for Dante Exum and pocket change?

You can look in my quote above, it seems to me Cleveland got a super deal by being the facilitator and I certainly think we have more assets that are expendable than what they offered to the table. Unless you want to tell me Dante Exum was a long coveted player in Huston?

Ainge not participating for me is a sign that maybe he did not WANT to participate. Which reminds me of the multiple years now where he kept his hoarded picks and did not make a move and the fact after our 2 studs, Marcus and Kemba we are quite thin in all departments so I did and still do think Ainge should have and should try to use every tool he has to upgrade this team NOW and not wait for next year as he seems to have set his mind to.

100% ^^^^^

Ktron wrote:Just for the record. Chemistry Memistry. I certainly would’ve done Kemba for Harden but thats come and gone.
Just wondering how many here still think getting Teague and not keeping Wanamaker was an upgrade?

Question: Is there no way on this God’s Celtics green earth we can get Karl Anthony Towns? Minnesota is a loser and a sucker so what would it take?

I admitted earlier in this thread that I thought Teague was a good pickup and now it looks like we should have just kept Wanny.

I think KAT would cost us Tatum or maybe Brown

A trade to pick up a center is and has been the primary need.

Ideally that would happen later this season when bodies are in motion prior to the trade deadline.

The TPE, or at least most of it, can be used in the deal. To get the type of center we need is going to also take trading away a quality player and probably a pick as well.

I can't see the team settling for an older or temporary fix. If no team is looking to shed the salary of a big that can defend and score in the paint pre-deadline, I think a trade then becomes an offseason priority.

The team is not in crisis mode and there is no reason to be. One thing has become abundantly clear, however... no big, no banner. The team, as currently assembled, is young, strong and developing, but just a piece or two shy of being a title contender. I firmly believe a deal will happen by this summer.

Well if anyone saw tonites game, I don’t think we need a Drummond type, especially for that salary. Last night Bam, the modern center type went off on Nets who had no one that could stop him, we have to stay away from the ancient dinosaurs, do not sign one of them. We don’t need a center to dominate Embid, we beat them by having the 2 J’s going off both ends and carrying us and making the role players better. Can’t have an all star at every position, no team can afford that, our center by committee will be fine IMHO. RWill still has upside to be, we just need an efficient role and durability from him and he can grow into that role and be fine. I got plenty of time to watch this young team grow....

I’ve been one of Danny’s biggest critics of late and I still have a mixed feelings about the way he has handled this team over the past few years. With that being said, I think I can still count my blessings because this guy here used to work got the C’s and now his crazy ass is with one of our main rivals. He makes Danny look like the GOAT amongst the NBA’s GM’s.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Well if anyone saw tonites game, I don’t think we need a Drummond type, especially for that salary. Last night Bam, the modern center type went off on Nets who had no one that could stop him, we have to stay away from the ancient dinosaurs, do not sign one of them. We don’t need a center to dominate Embid, we beat them by having the 2 J’s going off both ends and carrying us and making the role players better. Can’t have an all star at every position, no team can afford that, our center by committee will be fine IMHO. RWill still has upside to be, we just need an efficient role and durability from him and he can grow into that role and be fine. I got plenty of time to watch this young team grow....

Hey Cow,

I actually do believe we need a center with some ancient dinosaur in him. If he can shoot it too, so much the better. We get dominated in the paint due to the way our roster is built, very wing oriented. A strong inside force is absolutely the fix IMO. At both ends. Not just to deal with Embiid, either, but the likes of Giannis and to compete with teams in the West. Ayton is on the rise over there and is a great example of what's needed here. Doesn't have to be an All-Star, just someone who can bang 'n board and make the outlet pass. Someone who can live down low with some post moves. Shooting from range would be icing on the cake. I'd love to see RW3 grow into that role as hoped for, but I think we need to look elsewhere if he doesn't show consistent progress fairly soon. RW3 might even be good as a body off the bench in support of the center we need. Thompson and Theis, while nice role players, don't have what's needed to fill out the center spot on this roster IMO.

Regards

kdp59 wrote:Vankisa

missing out on Allen was a tough one for me too, but I guess Ainge wasn't really in the loop on that one.

I also am with you on the Teague signing, which i thought was a good one at the time (especially with Kemba starting the year on the shelf). Teague has been underwhelming to say to the least but he is on basically a vet minimum deal. Ainge would have been better off keeping  Wanamaker I regret to say now.

Wood isn't being moved by Houston iMO and I don't think he'd do much on this team anyway.  I have talked about Collins in the past as a young target. But everything i read  now, says Atlanta may end up moving him as they don't see him as a max extension guy. But I guess he thinks he is. That would be hard for the Celtics to have FOUR max players next season with Collins and Collins has yet to be come a very good defender.


I still see Thompson as a pretty big upgrade over Kanter from last year and Slightly better than Theis as well. So IMO Ainge upgraded two spots with the Thompson signing (TT over Theis and Theis over Kanter). Of course as I said I also liked the Teague signing , so my thoughts may be foggy to say the elast.

I don't think we've seen the best of this team yet and we won't until Kemba is fully back (close) and Tatum and brown are healthy also. Are we good enough as is to beat Philly , Mil and the nets? Time may tell that one if Ainge stands pat.

Well it has been 15 games and Teague has been ok offensively in a few but so bad defensively in ALL of them that he should be the 15th man on this roster in my opinion. I, like you liked TT a lot both on paper and seeing initially some good tough defender qualities in him. After 15 games he seems a bit too slow for faster, new age centers like Bam and a bit too impotent against big beasty dudes like Embiid and in extension Drummond etc. This is still to be proven once we play one of those bigger centers though. If I am correct both of our new additions have severely hampered us defensively. Which goes to explain to some extent the absolutely TERRIBLE defense the Celtics are having this season. I just do not get how such a good defensive team in the past can be so bad through 15 games.

My only explanation apart from "lack of effort!" is the new construction of the team. We used to be a VERY wing centric team that compensated for the COMPLETE lack of bigs by great wing defense. Now it seems to me we no longer lack bigs to such extent as before, but the ones we have are ... subpar? And on the other side we have lost a lot of the edge we had on the wings - say what you will GH was not a bad defender. And as Kemba was missing that is 2 guys on wing defense gone (ok Kemba is perhaps like 0.6 of a guy ). And our "substitute wing" Teague is the worst defender on the Celtics team I have seen since IT.

This is all a theory I have of course and I could be completely off but I am not so bullish on JT and TT anymore, quite the opposite. This is why I think a setup with Semi starting works so well. We do not need extra scoring the 2 Js are beasts. We need that extra wing defender though it seems.

dboss wrote:Given the fact that Kemba Waker is just getting back, losing Hayward to FA, changing out a center and  adding two more rookies, I would say that this team is ahead of the curve.

I picked them to go 10-10 through the first 20 games.  They are at 9-6 just 2 games from the top of the East.  From what I can see every team has some issues.

I do not see Danny doing much at the center position unless it involved trading one of them for someone else.  I just do not see that happening.  I think the key to our center position revolves around Robert Williams.  We actually do not need a high end offensive center to win.  We just need guys who can rebound, defend and set screens and score efficiently with limited opportunities  We need Brad Stevens to completely abandon any notion that Grant Williams can play center.  I am more convinced than every that you can solve the riddle at center by playing Robert Williams more (like 20 MPG at least)  Robert Williams is 12th on the team in MPG but 8th in scoring and 3rd in rebounding and he is our best rim protector.  Did I mention that he is shooting 71.9% from the field and 90% from the line.   Robert is 23 years old.  He has a lot of upside.  

In the end, I think we need to just sit back and let this team evolve.  When guys prove that they can do more they should play more.  Of all of the young guys on this team RW has shown the most YOY improvement in his play.  My new top 10 guys (MPG)

JB
JT
KW
MS
DT
TT
RW
PP
SO
JT

deep bench

JG
GW
AN
CE
TW
TF
RL


W

dboss,

as usual cannot argue with your logic, because I completely agree. Just wanted to give you my 2 cents on the following statement:

"In the end, I think we need to just sit back and let this team evolve.  When guys prove that they can do more they should play more.  Of all of the young guys on this team RW has shown the most YOY improvement in his play."

I want them to win. Now. Not evolve for unknown amount of time, I want them to be contenders because I think JB and JT are already as good as any superstar in this league which means we are officially wasting the title window they have if we are not aiming for a title this year already. I know you want that too of course, just want to point out where I am coming from with my more critical than most attitude to our roster composition and moves made by Ainge the last couple of years.

Now I have a question for you - this thread is named "should Danny make a trade now". I want to ask you - do you think that the team we have right now can evolve (ok scratch that anything can happen) has a good chance to play for the championship this season? Without any further moves by Danny, just with the current personnel.

I might be overly pessimistic, but I would like to improve the chances we have right now. Unfortunately for me Danny Ainge does not seem to share my concern

I think we should all chip in and buy Daryl Morey a one way ticket to the People's Republic of China where he would be warmly received. What a jerk.

Just read an article about possible Celtics pick ups and T. Ariza's name was there.

35yo and mutually away from the thunder now as they look to play younger players. So they likely would only be looking to unload his salary.

making $12.8M on the final year of his deal, which both fits into the TPE and keeps the team under the tax line.

OKC has multiple TPE's they got this off-season in their tank mode, so we could send someone like C. Edwards back to them there. Again they are likely just looking to move Ariza's salary off their books.

not a sexy move to say the least, but one that could easily be made one would think. If he still wants to play, he could provide some depth and wing and shooter off the bench type. Assuming Ainge can't pry someone better with that TPE.

vet wing depth there, i doubt he's the defender he once was at 35Yo but here is a link to his stats:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/arizatr01.html

played at sac and Port last year and went 28min/g with solid 3 pt shooting number still.