Boston Celtics' Most Improved Player: Jaylen Brown

dboss wrote:

prakash wrote:

dboss wrote:
Unrelated but maybe somewhat relevant, The Nets surprised a lot of folks.  With Harden taking on the role of the distributor.  Their big three, when healthy, was really good in a small sample size.

I don't see the surprise.  Harden adopted a complimentary role.  Distributor and scorer when needed.  He is must versatile of the three.  The trio, when healthy, make a lethal combo.

Why do you think that Beal Sandwiched between the two Js will not make a lethal combo as well?  I think so.

In terms of player progression, I would like JB to become a top defender in addition to his scoring.  I see that as his pathway to super stardom and not by creating for others.  I don't think that he will become a creative passer.

JT has to be/become our other scorer and primary creator.

Beal was the primary scorer AND facilitator for the Wizards in the 19-20 season.  I believe that he will nicely serve that lethal adaptive glue guy role.  Based upon what I have seen, he is so good in reading the floor and being effective based off of that.  He is not a lethal shooter like Curry/Klay or a bigger guy like JB/JT.  Yet he is so effective.  How?

                       +1
Prak

I read multiple comments that took the position that there were not enough balls to go around for 3 very high usage players, all of whom are offense.  So yeah it was a surprise to me any many other people.

Are you suggesting that you figured beforehand Harden would fall into a complimentary role as a distributor first and scorer 2nd?   If so you are one smart cookie.

The formula for JB becoming better is already in place.  You can just check all the boxes.  He needed to become a better ball handler and passer.  He needed to become a better free throw shooter.  He needed to be better going to the rim and improving his midrange game.  He needed to be better at knocking down the deep ball.    What is his ceiling as a creative player?  I do not know.  I do know that he will continue to work on all aspects of his game.  

I do not see Beal as the type of distributor that would compliment the J's.  His assist to TO ratio is less than 2:1  Last year he averaged 4.4 assist per game and 3.1 TO's.  His 3 point shooting went down to 34%.  The last 2 years he has averaged 23 FGA per game.  He is a classic gunner.  

The past 2 years we have had 3 20+ PPG scorers.  I prefer the formula where we have a floor general to pass out the cookies to make sure there is great shot distribution from the best scorers.  JT is not the guy to do that and neither is JB although both have improved their playmaking abilities and should continue to improve in those critical areas.

I just do not see a deal on the horizon where they bring in Bradley Beal.  He would come in as the the older veteran and who's team would it be?  At a time when the J's are ascending into stardom, the thing we need most are complimentary players at every position.  Beal is clearly a dominant offensive player.  I just do not think we need that.  I think it will take away from the J's.

dboss wrote:

Prak

Are you suggesting that you figured beforehand Harden would fall into a complimentary role as a distributor first and scorer 2nd?   If so you are one smart cookie.

I do not see Beal as the type of distributor that would compliment the J's.  His assist to TO ratio is less than 2:1  Last year he averaged 4.4 assist per game and 3.1 TO's.  His 3 point shooting went down to 34%.  The last 2 years he has averaged 23 FGA per game.  He is a classic gunner.  

prakash wrote:

dboss wrote:

Prak

Are you suggesting that you figured beforehand Harden would fall into a complimentary role as a distributor first and scorer 2nd?   If so you are one smart cookie.

I do not see Beal as the type of distributor that would compliment the J's.  His assist to TO ratio is less than 2:1  Last year he averaged 4.4 assist per game and 3.1 TO's.  His 3 point shooting went down to 34%.  The last 2 years he has averaged 23 FGA per game.  He is a classic gunner.  

LOL at the highlighted!  What took you so long?

No, I didn't see that Harden will become a distributor but I did expect that the three will figure out a balance.  We have seen this before, right?  When LeBron, Wade and Bosh came together, Bosh had to sacrifice his scoring and take on the defensive and rebounding roles.  He became a complimentary offensive player.

I will not get hung up on Beal and I acknowledge that trading for him is a long shot.  I have a simple question.  Is there a true star in the league that you would like to get on the team?  If so, who?  And how will that star not take away from the Js.

If you want the Celts to run with the two horses and complimentary pieces around them, then that is fine.  I respect that.  Just that I lean towards three stars.  Playing from the top is the best thing that can happen to the Js.  It will remarkably accelerate their growth.  At the same time, 2 horses will work.  Golden State won their first championship with just two horses, albeit that Kelly Olynyk's yank on Love's arm and Kyrie fracturing his patella also helped.  And the next year, two horses got beat by the three horses.

worcester wrote:Bob, I agree with you and dboss on keeping JB over acquiring BB, but your stat for Beal's 20-21 scoring was off. It was 31.3 ppg. His lifetime is 22 ppg.

Regarding opportunities to develop, we could market Grant Williams as someone with tremendous upside, given how low his numbers are now. He's a smart, smart player, but his physical limitations should keep him as a # 11 or 12 player on a very good Celtics team.

worcester wrote:The first Bob Heckler mistake this century...

dboss wrote:

Ktron wrote:We cannot compare what one player was at 24 to another player that is now 24!
Players peak at different times in their career. It’s impossible to gauge that way and know how ones going to turn out.
Some improve tremendously once reaching a certain age and some improve very little and then there’s some that peak at a younger age. It’s a metric that makes very little sense.
We don’t know how much better JB is gonna get. We are hoping he surpasses Beal and many others but the only way to get that answer is to wait and see. What these older all stars were in there younger years means nothing in comparisons. We’re gonna eventually find out.

ktron

We just did.  What other relative metric would you use to compare two players?  You can compare them at age 23 or age 22 if you like.  You can look at any metric that you want.  Let's hear it.

When you see players developing there is often a very recognizable pattern.  True, no one knows for absolute certainty if an upward trend will continue.  I focus on what improvement has already happened over a period of time and if there are areas where a player needs to improve.  Then I ask myself if a particular player is more likely to improve based on what has already happened over x number of years.  What has been their track record.  Are there physical limitations (Grant Williams)  

Anyways you already stated that you would make the trade for Beal and use JB to make it happened.  I am surprised that you would choose Jayson's Tatums' former babysitter and diaper wipe ass over our guy.

I disagree with you and anyone else that believes that would be a a good trade decision.  As a matter of fact it would be a really poor decision.  So here are my reasons.

1.  JB is 4 years younger and has already proven his work ethic and commitment to becoming a better player.  Beal is the one who has reached his peak and his age is not as favorable to Brown in terms of our timeline.

2.  JB is a powerful 6' 6" player who can play multiple positions on the court (2,3 and 4)  Beal is an undersized 6' 3' SG.  That is it.  Beal is more limited than Brown.

3.  Beal has 2 years left on his contract and Brown has 3 years.  Beal has a player option next year so that makes him a flight risk.  Next season Beal will make $7.8 million more than JB.  Based on the number alone JB is more cost effective.

4.  Lateral moves do not improves teams especially if a team still has positional needs.  If a team makes a trade for contract related advantages or to rid their team of a personality conflict lateral moves can be beneficial.  that is clearly not a factor.

5.  JB is a homegrown player, drafted by and developed by The Celtics.  He has established himself on and off the court.  He is a very special young man.  

I'll end by stating unequivocally that Jaylen Brown is a better and more diverse and more physically imposing player than Bradley Beal.  JB is a better shooter from the filed and a better rebounder and defender than Bradley Beal.  JB has shown steady improvement in all aspects of him game and there is no reason to believe that he has reached his pinnacle.  The fact of the matter is that if he never improved beyond who he is today, he would still be one helluva player to keep on your team.

dboss wrote:

So PG would be my top priority instead of adding another high usage scorer.  Please don't ask me who that guy may be because I have no idea.  As the Jays have ascended  to allstar status the need for another high end scorer has diminished.  But they need complimentary players around them that can get them 12-14 PPG night in and night out.  

I am still leaning towards the possibility that we are entering a bridge year where a big move cannot be made and a complete roster evaluation has not been and cannot be completed until we get through another season.

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:

Ktron wrote:We cannot compare what one player was at 24 to another player that is now 24!
Players peak at different times in their career. It’s impossible to gauge that way and know how ones going to turn out.
Some improve tremendously once reaching a certain age and some improve very little and then there’s some that peak at a younger age. It’s a metric that makes very little sense.
We don’t know how much better JB is gonna get. We are hoping he surpasses Beal and many others but the only way to get that answer is to wait and see. What these older all stars were in there younger years means nothing in comparisons. We’re gonna eventually find out.

ktron

We just did.  What other relative metric would you use to compare two players?  You can compare them at age 23 or age 22 if you like.  You can look at any metric that you want.  Let's hear it.

When you see players developing there is often a very recognizable pattern.  True, no one knows for absolute certainty if an upward trend will continue.  I focus on what improvement has already happened over a period of time and if there are areas where a player needs to improve.  Then I ask myself if a particular player is more likely to improve based on what has already happened over x number of years.  What has been their track record.  Are there physical limitations (Grant Williams)  

Anyways you already stated that you would make the trade for Beal and use JB to make it happened.  I am surprised that you would choose Jayson's Tatums' former babysitter and diaper wipe ass over our guy.

I disagree with you and anyone else that believes that would be a a good trade decision.  As a matter of fact it would be a really poor decision.  So here are my reasons.

1.  JB is 4 years younger and has already proven his work ethic and commitment to becoming a better player.  Beal is the one who has reached his peak and his age is not as favorable to Brown in terms of our timeline.

2.  JB is a powerful 6' 6" player who can play multiple positions on the court (2,3 and 4)  Beal is an undersized 6' 3' SG.  That is it.  Beal is more limited than Brown.

3.  Beal has 2 years left on his contract and Brown has 3 years.  Beal has a player option next year so that makes him a flight risk.  Next season Beal will make $7.8 million more than JB.  Based on the number alone JB is more cost effective.

4.  Lateral moves do not improves teams especially if a team still has positional needs.  If a team makes a trade for contract related advantages or to rid their team of a personality conflict lateral moves can be beneficial.  that is clearly not a factor.

5.  JB is a homegrown player, drafted by and developed by The Celtics.  He has established himself on and off the court.  He is a very special young man.  

I'll end by stating unequivocally that Jaylen Brown is a better and more diverse and more physically imposing player than Bradley Beal.  JB is a better shooter from the filed and a better rebounder and defender than Bradley Beal.  JB has shown steady improvement in all aspects of him game and there is no reason to believe that he has reached his pinnacle.  The fact of the matter is that if he never improved beyond who he is today, he would still be one helluva player to keep on your team.

Dboss,I say this with all due respect- your metrics are whack!
If  I get all A’s in my senior year and you get all B’s in your senior year,
Does that mean I’m going to be more successful than you down the road?
It’s hilarious. Who gives a F if JB is better at 24? For all we know JB may have already reached his ceiling.
You have proof that he’s going to get better?!it’s all speculation and quite frankly I’m bored with all of you mathematicians.
1. How do we know if Beal has peaked? How do We know that he’s not going to be better next year? We don’t so conflate Their ages and progress all you want. NOBODY KNOWS THE FUTURE of anyone of them past June 2021.
2. I said I’d trade Brown for Beal but there would be other contingency’s that I failed to mention.
I’d prefer to wait till next year where maybe we can have him without giving up Brown as I said in a previous post.
3. We’re all aware of Browns character. It’s impeccable. I only wish we had 14 more like him but what does that have go do with scoring points and defending? That is what the bottom line is.  No?
You want Altar boys or BB players?
4. I’m not  a bean counter and neither should any of us be so miss me with the cost effective BS. Other teams find a way to improve and that’s all I want. I’m not in love with anyone who’s not winning.
5. Let the FO figure it out.
Again, I want Brown to stay I would like Beal as an addition if possible.
What either of them did in the Sandbox, playground, HS or college has zero to do with how good each will be next season or the one after and so on.
I don’t buy the comparisons of age but if thats comforting for to employ in Your analysis, have at it.
Now leave me be. I’m on my to Robells to buy some new
Ear muffs and blindfolds. Lol

cowens/oldschool wrote:Dboss your analysis and eye test work for me, it would be totally asinine to trade JB after all the hard work and improvement he has diligently put forth. We have got to 3 ECF’s with JB and he keeps demanding a bigger role by his play every year. You can’t trade a young 2 way workhorse player like that to just make a trade for a Beal. Bradley Beal is a good player, but it’s easy to see many areas where Jaylen is just more gifted and better at already than Beal. I don’t feel I have to break it down, me personally I think Beal had a career year, we’ll see if he can carry that team and put up those numbers again. Again as good as Beal is, he’s not good enough to make that trade….bottom line.

prakash wrote:

dboss wrote:

So PG would be my top priority instead of adding another high usage scorer.  Please don't ask me who that guy may be because I have no idea.  As the Jays have ascended  to allstar status the need for another high end scorer has diminished.  But they need complimentary players around them that can get them 12-14 PPG night in and night out.  

I am still leaning towards the possibility that we are entering a bridge year where a big move cannot be made and a complete roster evaluation has not been and cannot be completed until we get through another season.

I caught a lot of flak for suggesting a Lowry for Smart swap.  Lowry is a floor general, right?  We need a floor general but how do we get one without giving up something?

Regarding the highlighted, I don't see the bridge year.  There are too many assumptions built into that statement.

The biggest is that RWill can improve enough to offset the decline in Horford.  Not happening because of RWill's fragility and medically necessitated minutes restrictions.

Another that Nesmith/Langford can become strong NBA contributors.  I have better hope for this.

And the last one that we will be able to navigate Smart's free agency, RWill's restricted free agency and Horford's contract, and ALSO be able to add an impact player despite all kinds of salary match and cap space restrictions.

Hence my opinion that we should maximize the last 2-year's of Horford's presence by doing something now.

dboss wrote:

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:

Ktron wrote:We cannot compare what one player was at 24 to another player that is now 24!
Players peak at different times in their career. It’s impossible to gauge that way and know how ones going to turn out.
Some improve tremendously once reaching a certain age and some improve very little and then there’s some that peak at a younger age. It’s a metric that makes very little sense.
We don’t know how much better JB is gonna get. We are hoping he surpasses Beal and many others but the only way to get that answer is to wait and see. What these older all stars were in there younger years means nothing in comparisons. We’re gonna eventually find out.

ktron

We just did.  What other relative metric would you use to compare two players?  You can compare them at age 23 or age 22 if you like.  You can look at any metric that you want.  Let's hear it.

When you see players developing there is often a very recognizable pattern.  True, no one knows for absolute certainty if an upward trend will continue.  I focus on what improvement has already happened over a period of time and if there are areas where a player needs to improve.  Then I ask myself if a particular player is more likely to improve based on what has already happened over x number of years.  What has been their track record.  Are there physical limitations (Grant Williams)  

Anyways you already stated that you would make the trade for Beal and use JB to make it happened.  I am surprised that you would choose Jayson's Tatums' former babysitter and diaper wipe ass over our guy.

I disagree with you and anyone else that believes that would be a a good trade decision.  As a matter of fact it would be a really poor decision.  So here are my reasons.

1.  JB is 4 years younger and has already proven his work ethic and commitment to becoming a better player.  Beal is the one who has reached his peak and his age is not as favorable to Brown in terms of our timeline.

2.  JB is a powerful 6' 6" player who can play multiple positions on the court (2,3 and 4)  Beal is an undersized 6' 3' SG.  That is it.  Beal is more limited than Brown.

3.  Beal has 2 years left on his contract and Brown has 3 years.  Beal has a player option next year so that makes him a flight risk.  Next season Beal will make $7.8 million more than JB.  Based on the number alone JB is more cost effective.

4.  Lateral moves do not improves teams especially if a team still has positional needs.  If a team makes a trade for contract related advantages or to rid their team of a personality conflict lateral moves can be beneficial.  that is clearly not a factor.

5.  JB is a homegrown player, drafted by and developed by The Celtics.  He has established himself on and off the court.  He is a very special young man.  

I'll end by stating unequivocally that Jaylen Brown is a better and more diverse and more physically imposing player than Bradley Beal.  JB is a better shooter from the filed and a better rebounder and defender than Bradley Beal.  JB has shown steady improvement in all aspects of him game and there is no reason to believe that he has reached his pinnacle.  The fact of the matter is that if he never improved beyond who he is today, he would still be one helluva player to keep on your team.

Dboss,I say this with all due respect- your metrics are whack!
If  I get all A’s in my senior year and you get all B’s in your senior year,
Does that mean I’m going to be more successful than you down the road?
It’s hilarious. Who gives a F if JB is better at 24? For all we know JB may have already reached his ceiling.
You have proof that he’s going to get better?!it’s all speculation and quite frankly I’m bored with all of you mathematicians.
1. How do we know if Beal has peaked? How do We know that he’s not going to be better next year? We don’t so conflate Their ages and progress all you want. NOBODY KNOWS THE FUTURE of anyone of them past June 2021.
2. I said I’d trade Brown for Beal but there would be other contingency’s that I failed to mention.
I’d prefer to wait till next year where maybe we can have him without giving up Brown as I said in a previous post.
3. We’re all aware of Browns character. It’s impeccable. I only wish we had 14 more like him but what does that have go do with scoring points and defending? That is what the bottom line is.  No?
You want Altar boys or BB players?
4. I’m not  a bean counter and neither should any of us be so miss me with the cost effective BS. Other teams find a way to improve and that’s all I want. I’m not in love with anyone who’s not winning.
5. Let the FO figure it out.
Again, I want Brown to stay I would like Beal as an addition if possible.
What either of them did in the Sandbox, playground, HS or college has zero to do with how good each will be next season or the one after and so on.
I don’t buy the comparisons of age but if thats comforting for to employ in Your analysis, have at it.
Now leave me be. I’m on my to Robells to buy some new
Ear muffs and blindfolds. Lol

+1

Well if you have a guy on your team for a few years ya sorta get some feel about who they are.   JB was signed to a new deal before he hit his first 20 PPG mark.  It is true that you can never be absolutely certain if a guy is going to improve and if so by how much.  JB on the other hand seems destined for greatness.

As you know, players are compared to one another all the time.  Metrics usually come into play at some point.  The age comparison is used all the time.  

The babysitter will not be wearing the green. he he,,