Re: Celtics in trade talks to send Doc Rivers, Kevin Garnett to Clippers

by **NYCelt** Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:31 pm

Outside,

I agree with your take on Doc. I don't feel he should be labled a traitor by any means. This whole story-line, however, spells the end of his useful time here regardless of the deal with the Clippers getting done. I think we acknowledge his service as one of the best and most productive coaches this franchise has ever known and move on amicably and swiftly.

Regards

by **Outside** Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:39 pm

NYCelt wrote:I think what's showing Ainge's smarts here is what, or rather who, his bargaining chip is. He sees a situation where his coach has high appeal to another organization and the interest is mutual. What's more it looks like the coach isn't wild about sticking around anyway. KG and to a lesser extent Pierce have no real value to others, at least not at the price tag they come with, and their current contracts are weighing us down badly. The Clippers, however, prize Rivers because he can secure Chris Paul.

Jordan isn't the top center in the league, but he is far better than anyone else available and a young post player you can build with. His skills compliment our current point guard as well. He has far more long-term value to a team like ours than KG at this point, and possibly excepting KG's intensity, greater immediate value as well. To get a draft pick or even two, and a second player of some sort thrown in for us on top of what is already a one-sided transaction takes genius, guts, the b*lls of a burgler or all three.

We're getting rid of a big contract and a diminishing player, along with a coach who doesn't want to be here and taking back a decent big we desperately need and a draft pick plus more?

If Danny actually pulls this one off he's putting himself up there in negotiating hall of fame territory.

There are so many unknowns with this situation that Ainge's reputation from this deal ranges from "Captain of the Titanic" to "Negotiating Hall of Fame." We won't know until the deal is done, and even then, probably not until quite a while after.

What happens with Pierce in this deal? Moving KG but not Pierce seems like a half-hearted move; the only logical thing is to move Pierce as well. There are simple ways to get him off the books -- amnesty or waive him -- but I don't see how he can be "promised" in any way to the Clippers. Another team would pick him up. Maybe Pierce stays, maybe he goes, but he's probably going through jars of antacids at the moment.

Stockpiling the draft picks is the underappreciated part of this. That's how OKC built their team. Of course, you have to use those picks wisely, either by drafting well or by using them as assets in subsequent deals. Either way, the payoff from this could be years in the making.

I'd be cautious on expectations for DeAndre Jordan. He may benefit from a change of scenery and blossom in Boston, but he hasn't improved these past two seasons, and might've even regressed this season. He blocks shots but normally as an off-the-ball defender, meaning that he blocks the shot of some other guy's man, not his own man. His individual defense is sorely lacking, and a guy like Marc Gasol eats him up. He has extremely limited offensive skills (dunking, offensive rebound putbacks). His free-throw shooting makes Kendrick Perkins look good. The addition of Chris Paul didn't magically turn him into a more productive player, so there's not a lot of reason to think Rondo will do much more, except that Rondo is much more of a running point guard than Chris Paul and Jordan's athleticism combined with Rondo could make Jordan an effective trailer on the fast break.

Jordan certainly has the potential to improve, but the fact remains that he has a lot of improving to do. Still, I do think that NYCelt is correct that Jordan is probably better than any other option available, including through the draft. But considering that Jordan's limitations mean he only plays around half the game (he's averaged about 26 minutes per game the last three seasons), I'd still vote for drafting another center this year. If Dieng is available at 16, the Celtics should snap him up regardless of how this plays out.

by **k_j_88** Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:04 pm

I don't think Doc is a "traitor." I just think that it's time for him to go. If he doesn't want to rebuild, which is something the team has to do now, then Boston isn't the best place for him.

DeAndre Jordan is still young. He has room to grow as a player if he is willing to work on building his skill set. His physical abilities are an asset, I think, and would help this team become more athletic and play a higher tempo style.

I'd like to see them draft Dieng, too We've seen the effects of not having enough guys to play at the rim.

by **k_j_88** Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:06 pm

Outside,

Rondo averages more apg than CP3. Not only that, but CP3 has to be a scorer on his team. I'm thinking Jordan will do better on the C's because he'll get more minutes and will probably get the ball more.

by **bobheckler** Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:13 pm

Talks are now looking like Bledsoe is off the table but LA agrees to take Lee or JET.

I'm not sure how the numbers work here.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4705513/sources-new-framework-for-cs-clippers-deal

The Celtics and Clippers have relaunched discussions on a new trade framework that could bring a resolution to the complicated talks regarding coach Doc Rivers and star forwardKevin Garnett potentially going to Los Angeles in a multiplayer deal, according to sources close to the process.

With the Clippers adamant that prized young guard Eric Bledsoe will not be included in a trade for Garnett, sources told ESPN.com that one proposed tweak to end the weekend stalemate in the talks is the prospect of the Clippers taking back the contract of either Courtney Lee orJason Terry from the Celtics.

Shedding the long-term money owed to either Lee or Terry, sources said, could persuade the Celtics to relent on their demand that Bledsoe be included in the trade. A deal could be completed later Monday or by Tuesday, sources said.

The proposed cross-country move of Rivers from the Celtics' bench to the Clippers' bench was in limbo all weekend because of the teams' ongoing haggling over Bledsoe. Sources told ESPN.com that the Celtics initially were adamant that they will not consent to allow Rivers out of the final three years and $21 million on his contract unless they receive both Bledsoe and Clippers center DeAndre Jordan in a corresponding trade for Garnett, along with at least one future first-round draft pick as compensation for Rivers.

Yet sources say that the Clippers have made it clear to Boston that they will not include Bledsoe in the proposed trade for Garnett, largely because they are determined to keepChris Paul's backup to headline a separate down-the-road trade once they're certain that Paul has committed his long-term future to L.A.

If the Celtics ultimately consent to a trade without Bledsoe, their expected haul for Rivers and Garnett would be headlined by Jordan, that future first-round draft choice and the ability to shed the long-term salary due either Lee or Terry, both of whom are scheduled to earn nearly $11 million over the next two seasons. It's also possible, sources said, that the Celtics will try to extract another trade asset from the Clippers to replace Bledsoe.

The Clippers, meanwhile, believe that the deal will guarantee that Paul re-signs with the team when he becomes a free agent July 1. And if they can successfully acquire Garnett in tandem with Rivers as their replacement for coach Vinny Del Negro, sources briefed on L.A.'s thinking say that the club would then pursue Paul Pierce in an attempt to reunite all three Celtics mainstays at the Staples Center. The Clippers would also then still have Bledsoe in the latter scenario as a trade chip to pursue additional roster upgrades to ensure Paul's signature on a new contract.
If neither side budges soon, sources close to the situation expect the Clippers to change course by Tuesday or Wednesday and name either Lionel Hollins or Brian Shaw as their new coach, which would end L.A.'s complicated courtship of Rivers and force him to decide whether to return to the Celtics next season -- as Boston president of basketball operations Danny Ainge still hopes -- or leave the game to either return to broadcasting or simply recharge away from it.

Sources say Hollins has emerged as the Clippers' preferred choice if they don't land Rivers.

bob

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by **bobheckler** Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:23 pm

Jordan makes $10.9M this year.
KG makes $11.5M this year.
JET and Lee both make $5.2M this year.

11.5+5.2M = 16.7M
16.7/10.9 = 1.53

It has to be within 25%, or a minimum of $13.625M.

Unless I'm missing something, another player, or more, has to be thrown in by the Clips, with a minimum salary of $2.725M. Grant Hill is still on their books for this year, and this year only, for $2M. Willie Green has a team option to be picked up for $1.4M.

bob

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by **swish** Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:46 pm

I believe that Jordan plus Billups would do it.

Swish

by **k_j_88** Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:38 pm

Hmm.. Billups back in green...

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:42 pm

Chauncey Billups is not under contract for next season.
He could only be traded in a sign and trade starting in July.

by **bobheckler** Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:02 pm

6/17, 2:00 PDT.

The deal is reportedly "close to being done".

As of this second, it's looking like Doc, KG and either Lee or JET to LAC for Jordan, Caron Butler and one 1st round pick.

bob

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by **NYCelt** Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:05 pm

Outside,

My guess is if the deal is done Pierce would also be part of the purge. To the Clips or not, I won't read that far into the crystal ball, but in some way.

If we could also end up with a Dieng, Withey, or Plumlee from the draft we might have a potential reliever out of the bullpen behind Jordan.

Regards

by **NYCelt** Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:08 pm

Caron Butler?

OK. On the old side at 33, but to pair with Green for a year or as part of a further deal; sure.

by **bobheckler** Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:08 pm

NYCelt wrote:Outside,

My guess is if the deal is done Pierce would also be part of the purge. To the Clips or not, I won't read that far into the crystal ball, but in some way.

If we could also end up with a Dieng, Withey, or Plumlee from the draft we might have a potential reliever out of the bullpen behind Jordan.

Regards

NYCELT,

Somebody who can hit free throws, I hope.

bob

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by **NYCelt** Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:09 pm

Bob,

You do have a point there...

Regards

by **k_j_88** Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:16 pm

Caron Butler? Eww.... As long as they trade him immediately elsewhere.

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:21 pm

sam wrote:Cow,

I want it to be known that my post to TJ had nothing to do with his intellect, which I greatly respect. It simply involved a difference of opinion on the inner workings of the Celtics. Terms like "not bright" and "pure stupidity" amount to name-calling, which is a no-no on this board; so I've removed the posts containing those references.

Best regards,

Sam

I didn't say you said anything, and where did I use the word stupidity?

by **bobheckler** Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:24 pm

k_j_88 wrote:Caron Butler? Eww.... As long as they trade him immediately elsewhere.

KJ,

I doubt that will happen. He has an $8M expiring contract. He might be gone by trade deadline in a salary dump, but I don't see him being a hot prospect now.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleca01.html

bob

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by **dboss** Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:51 pm

Bob of course he could resign and save being humiliated. Same thing as firing yourself.

It does not matter to me how he goes as long as he is gone and we can turn the page and begin a new chapter.

This thing has gone so far down the road that there is no turning back and I think everybody understands that. But this does make for an interesting conversation.

DA should do the best that he can do and then we should move on.

dboss

by **dboss** Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:55 pm

Question

If DA is able to secure 2 first rounds picks can he turn around and trade those picks to make another deal right now?

What about Paul Pierce? I read some speculation that they may just cut him (and get nothing in return) If his contract is going to be cut he still has some trade value.

If the Clippers do not make a deal to get Howard they will be no better off than they were this year. Just an opinion.

dboss

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:59 pm

dboss wrote:Question

If DA is able to secure 2 first rounds picks can he turn around and trade those picks to make another deal right now?

What about Paul Pierce? I read some speculation that they may just cut him (and get nothing in return) If his contract is going to be cut he still has some trade value.

If the Clippers do not make a deal to get Howard they will be no better off than they were this year. Just an opinion.

dboss

Yes, draft picks can be traded at any time.
The only limitation to trading draft picks is that a team can't trade future 1st round draft picks in consecutive years. (The Stepian Rule).

by **Sam** Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:55 pm

TJ,

Articles are fine, but I feel comfortable going by my own instincts on virtually anything Celtics-related. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. People are increasingly assuming that his failure to announce his intentions has been either a negative indication or a slight to the Celtics. I think that's much less likely than the fact that they've all been playing their cards close to the vest while trying to pull of this big trade:

• When the "rebirth" of the Clips trade possibility first surfaced, the prevailing "wisdom" had been that Doc was unavailable because the Celtics had refused teams the right to talk to him.

• I think that, in order to pique the interest of the Clips in a possible "trade" involving Doc, that widespread notion had to be tempered.

• Rather than issuing some contrived, contradictory public statement that he really was (wink wink) available, I believe Wyc, Danny and Doc collectively realized the the best course of action was for Doc to be noncommittal about whether or not he'd return. This would be designed to offer hope to the Clips that he really might be available, thereby encouraging the Clips to pursue a deal involving Doc. It would benefit everyone involved. Doc and KG would be united in a new joint adventure. The Clips would have the arguably best NBA coach on hand to lead a great blend of talented youth and talented experience, as well as a wonderful partner and mentor for the Clips' big men. The Celtics would get a possible building block for the future, and they'd turn a potentially retiring player into a trade asset.

• At no time has Doc gone on record as saying he didn't want to return to the Celtics, so no burning of the bridge occurred. The way they handled the whole thing, in fact, paved the way for Doc to return seamlessly to the Celtics if the trade didn't work out. The same fans and media types who covet conspiracy theories are now trying to turn this into a Doc versus Celtics circus.

Sam

by **Sam** Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:09 am

Cow, since you seem intent on belaboring this issue, my mention of "pure stupidity" was an exact quote, but of course I deleted it so there's no record of it now, as you well know. Do you also deny that you said he was "not bright?"

I have no idea what "I didn't say you said anything" even means. If it's somehow intended to question how I felt involved, that's easy. I felt involved because you addressed your post to me. If I had not responded in some way, it could potentially imply that I agreed with you, which I quite obviously did not.

I consider us to be very good friends, but I have a commitment to moderate this board as best I can; and the rules apply to everyone—with personal insults being at the top of the list.

Best regards,

Sam

by **dbrown4** Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:40 am

This is for anyone, but in particular, bobh, sam and tj,

what is the value of a future draft pick in terms of trading it and using to balance a trade as far as the $ goes? In other words, how is its value determined?

I can further clarify if necessary. Thanks, db

by **gyso** Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:15 am

85. How are draft picks handled in trades? What is the Stepien rule?

Draft picks (both first and second round) count $0 for salary matching purposes. This is true both before and after the draft, until the player signs a contract. This can make it very difficult to construct a trade that is equitable in both trade value and basketball value.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q85

There is more related info, so follow the link.

gyso

by **bobheckler** Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:52 am

Doc Rivers, Kevin Garnett trade rumors: What we learned about Celtics-Clippers deal Monday
By Rodger Sherman on Jun 18 2013, 7:30a @sippinonpurple 2
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Celtics in trade talks to send Doc Rivers, Kevin Garnett to Clippers - Page 2 156465998.0_standard_709.0

Celtics in trade talks to send Doc Rivers, Kevin Garnett to Clippers - Page 2 156465998.0_standard_709.0

Bruce Bennett

The Celtics and Clippers are working out a somewhat confusing trade with Doc Rivers and Kevin Garnett headed to Los Angeles. We round up what we found out Monday about the negotiations in a deal that seemed dead.

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The trade discussions involving Doc Rivers and Kevin Garnett going from theBoston Celtics to the Los Angeles Clippers have lived to see another dawn after a tumultuous Monday that saw seemingly dead rumors revived. It looks as if the two teams are actually moving closer to an unprecedented deal that will send a head coach and a player to another franchise for players and draft picks from the other team.
It's obviously logistically complicated as the Celtics and Clippers are rumored to be exchanging players DeAndre Jordan and Garnett while the Clippers also give up draft picks in return for Boston waiving Doc Rivers' non-compete clause.
Our whole StoryStream explains things in detail, but we went ahead and summarized what transpired in the talks on Monday for those looking for the TL;DR version:
- The Clippers won't give up Eric Bledsoe. The Celtics reportedly coveted the backup point guard all the way back at the trade deadline -- like a few other teams -- but the Clippers have rebuffed every attempt the opposition has made at bringing in Chris Paul'sexplosive second-stringer. Bledsoe blossomed this past year -- showing his same speedster capabilities along with a newfound jumper -- but the Kentucky product is still on his rookie contract ... which explains why the Celtics were so eager to grab him as they try rebuilding. Regardless, LA won't budge.
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More: Celtics Blog Celtics Blog's Doc stream Clips Nation CN on the Doc situation

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- The Celtics won't dump Jason Terry or Courtney Lee onto the Clippers. The two were part of talks earlier when the Celtics looked to go in on a salary slaughter, but the Clippers don't particularly want them either. Boston is already coming out ahead in terms of salary cap -- Garnett is owed $18 million next season, Jordan just $11 million -- and the Clippers will also have to match Doc Rivers' $7 million salary -- believed to be the most expensive in the league. Adding Lee and Terry would have asked the Clippers to commit even more financially in a deal already lopsided on that front.
- The Celtics want two first-round picks, the Clippers are only interested in trading one. On the one hand, this is a surprising holdup: if the Clippers hypothetically bring in Kevin Garnett and Doc Rivers to a team that just won 56 games and took the Pacific Division crown, they'll be good. Since good teams have low draft picks, why the hub-bub from Boston about an extra middling pick? For the Celtics? Well, they've already given up their primary desires on the salary front and the personnel front and now LA is trying to give them even less. Meanwhile, the Clippers are breaking the bank for an aging player and a coach and Boston is asking them to give up part of their future as well. Both sides have their reason for stubbornness, but it seems a deal will get done.
We'll be here with more as the trade talks wind on.

bob

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