The second coming of Bill Russell

Has anybody seen how much DeAndre Jordan has improved? as much as I love Noah, this guy improved by leaps and bounds this year and should have been Defensive Player of the Year. I'm shocked how much improvement this kid has made, Doc Rivers really did an unbelievable job help getting him to this unforeseen level. His shotblocking and rebounding numbers are off the chart, also can't believe how many teams passed up on this kid and again how much he has improved.

Cow, you're correct that Jordan has improved tremendously this year and that it's in large part due to Doc Rivers. Jordan had made a significant improvement two years ago, but he regressed a bit last year. Doc instilled confidence in him, clearly established his role, and made him understand how valuable that role -- a role where he'd make his contributions almost completely as a rebounder and defender -- can be to a championship team. Where Del Negro sat Jordan for the fourth quarter, Doc plays him, which is a demonstration of the confidence Doc has in him and the importance of his role to the team.

As far as teams passing on him, we've had this discussion before, but there were good reasons Jordan wasn't picked until the second round (which means every team, including the Clippers, passed on him in the first round), and he was a foul-prone definition of "raw" for his first three seasons. Why does a guy picked high in the draft like Hasheem Thabeet fail while a guy like Jordan picked 35th eventually succeed? GMs everywhere, even the best, wish they had a way to tell, but even the best GM is wrong half the time.

One thing about Jordan is that I really like the kid. He doesn't have a mean streak, but that doesn't stop him in the least from being aggressive. He seems like a nice, fun guy, and he plays with enthusiasm and joy. He's a pleasure to watch.

I like Jordan. But I'd hold off on comparisons.



KJ

His 2013-14 rebounding numbers as a 25 year old compare very favorably with Russell's numbers at the same age. The next 5 plus years will determine what the final comparison looks like.

swish

I like the way he is playing too.

How many board members frowned at the rumor involving KG being part of a trade for him?

As far as Bill Russell comparisons..HE HAS A VERY LONG road to travel before I could consider that.

Dboss

swish wrote:His 2013-14 rebounding numbers as a 25 year old compare very favorably with Russell's numbers at the same age. The next 5 plus years will determine what the final comparison looks like.

swish

Swish how did you come to that conclusion?

Please take a look at Russell's Rebounding numbers at age 25. I think it was up there around 23 per game.

Dboss

Swish

It was 24

Forget about it...we do not need 5 years

No legit comparison can be made.

dboss

dboss

 When comparing Generations some very important adjustments must be made.
In the 60's, star players tended to average many more minutes per game which inflated their per game  averages. Also, back in the 60's there were a lot more shots taken resulting in a lot more missed shots resulting in a lot more rebounds.

To level the playing field I used the rebounds per 36 minutes which is 14.0 for Jordan and 20.3 for Russ.
Now the league average number of rebounds in a game in 2013-14 was 85.4 and in 1959-60 it was 124.4. Jordan accounted for 16.4 % of the rebounds (14 divided by 85.4) while Russ accounted for 16.3% of the rebounds (20.3 divided by 124.4).  That's a virtual tie.

swish

Multiply 85.4 times 16.3% and that has Russ with 13.9 rebounds in 2013-14

swish wrote:dboss

 When comparing Generations some very important adjustments must be made.
In the 60's, star players tended to average many more minutes per game which inflated their per game  averages. Also, back in the 60's there were a lot more shots taken resulting in a lot more missed shots resulting in a lot more rebounds.

To level the playing field I used the rebounds per 36 minutes which is 14.0 for Jordan and 20.3 for Russ.
Now the league average number of rebounds in a game in 2013-14 was 85.4 and in 1959-60 it was 124.4. Jordan accounted for 16.4 % of the rebounds (14 divided by 85.4) while Russ accounted for 16.3% of the rebounds (20.3 divided by 124.4).  That's a virtual tie.

swish

Multiply 85.4 times 16.3% and that has Russ with 13.9 rebounds in 2013-14

swish,

/36mpg comparisons are more valid between players of the same era than between players of different eras.  For example, no hand checking now, 3pt shots now, more physical play allowed then, continuation fouls called.  All those factors, and others, change the stats and therefore the analysis (e.g. if you take 3pt shots and miss, which is more likely since it is a lower percentage shot, then that increases the number of rebounds.  Those shots weren't taken back before the 3pt line was established and fewer rebounds would be the result per 100 possessions).

Comparing a player's rebound % vs the league's average ignores his role on the team.  If the only big rebounders on the Clips are Jordan and Griffin, then they should get bigger % of the rebounds while if everybody rebounds then each player will get a smaller %.  In the case of the Clips, Jordan had 13.6rpg and Griffin had 9.5rpg and the next highest after that was Barnes at 4.6rpg.  Forget about the /36 aspect and just see how concentrated the rebounding on the Clips is in those 2 players.  In 59-60, Russell averaged 24.0rpg, Heinsohn had 10.6rpg, Gene Conley had 8.3rpg (in just 18.7mpg), Frank Ramsey had 6.9rpg, Sam Jones had 5.1rpg (in just 20.4mpg).  Even John Richter with just 12.2mpg averaged 4.7rpg, which is better than the Clippers' #3 rebounder, Matt Barnes, 4.6rpg at 27.5mpg.  In short, the rebounding on the Clips is much more concentrated than on the 59-60 Celtics, so Jordan's numbers as a percentage of the total should be a lot more impressive, but they're not.

Also, you said that there were more fgas taken in the 60's and that results in more rebounds.  An assumption implicit in your analysis is that the fg% was the same as today and that's how you can make a comparison between rebound rates.  In fact, there were a lot more high percentage layups in the 60's, because they played a more uptempo game, which increased the fg% and reduced the number of rebounds. There's no rebound if you hit the shot and you'll hit more shots if you're taking more layups and fewer pull-up 3s on a break, right?  There was no 3pt line back then, so shots were higher percentage shots and fewer rebounds.  The Clips shot 44.1% from the field this year.  If I had the time I'd like to do a calculation of the 59-60 Celtics team fg% and see what that's like.




bob



.

Thanks, BobH.




KJ

No comment

Bill Russell did a lot more than just rebounds. I'm sure he had many blocks (pre-recording era) and was instrumental to their fast break offense.

I like Jordan, but his game lacks the gravity that Russell's had.


KJ

Shaq has said repeatedly hes Bill Russell like and called him Bill Russell Jr, when it comes to style of play, using speed and timing and leaping and staying persistent and his god given athleticism compared to others hes definitely more in playing style like Russell. You wouldn't claim Dwight Howard or LeMarcus Aldridge or Al Jefferson or Mark Gasol had anything near a playing style or role similar to Bill Russell, but these playoffs hes emerging as a real force and his role and style of play is more like Bill Russell than any center in a long, long time. In the Clippers last game,an incredible game 7 dogfight, he made big intangible, big intangible block or rebound or offensive rebound tip in in the closing minutes of a tight game, it was definitely Russell or Dennis Rodman like defense and board work that contributed at the perfect time for the Clippers.

Right now hes my pick as first team all NBA at center, his defense and rebounding ability is better than Howard or Noah in my book....with the way he plays his role and his basketball strengths and style of play, I'd say hes Russell like. Hes got to be the quickest leaper out there today, combined with his height and wingspan hes a shotblocking monster. Will be a great match up the next round with him going against Perk and Ibaka and defending Durant and Westbrook on their drives.

Gee

I did not know that Shaq played against Bill Russell and Jordan.

Dboss

Dboss Shaq gets paid to make comments, are you saying one has to play against a particular player to make a valid comparison?

Saying that a player has the tendencies of another player is fair game, as long as the "evidence" is not selective.  But rebounding dominance is only one acceptable type of "evidence," and it should be measured in the right way.

• As far as stats are concerned, there's always a context.  In this case, one important context is the difference between eras.  So let's remove that difference as a variable by looking at his performance within the context of his own team.  When Russ was age 25, he grabbed 30% of his own team's rebounds despite "competing" for rebounds, in essence, with four teammates who averaged at least five a game.  At age 25, Jordan grabbed only 21% of his own team's rebounds, despite "competing" for rebounds with only one other teammate (Griffin) who averaged at least five rebounds a game.

But there are so many factors about rebounding that can't be quantified.

• For example, after getting a rebound, what kind of outlet passer is the rebounder?  (The fact that Russ, at age 25, averaged four times as many assists per minute than Jordan at 25, suggests that Russ was a far superior passer, and I can attest to the fact that it was true both in transition and the half court.)  

• How well does the player block out or occupy opposing rebounders to make the rebounding chores of teammates easier?  Is it a coincidence that, when Russ was age 25, four of his teammates also grabbed at least five rebounds per game, while Jordan had only one such teammate?  (More on that last sentence shortly.)

Another important context in a discussion such as this involves how complete a player he is for his team.

• Blocks are one indicator of defensive ability (and puh-leeze don't try to engage me in a comparison of Russ' obviously exalted blocks impact with Jordan and his relatively puny 2.5 blocks per 36 minutes).

• But how about his altered shots?

• How about the percentage of his blocked shots that wind up inbounds and in the hands of a teammate?

• What about his agility—north, south, east and west—and, in effect, his ability to switch and cover more than one opponent at the same time?

• How about the psychological threat of a potential block or other defensive move that, in Russ's case, augmented his overall defensive presence so immensely that one of his 11 Russell Rules ("Invisible Man") deals with just that strategy?

• How about the types of blocks at which he excels, such as the ability to track down an opponent in breakaway mode and stuff him?

• How about his ability to hold his jump until the shot is under way (so as to avoid falling for fakes) and to jump so quickly that he can still block the shot?  

Putting things on a per minute basis is another important context in making many comparisons.  (It yields the same comparative result as putting things on a per-36 minute basis, on which some people seem hung up because they reason that some players don't usually play as many as 36 minutes per game.)

• At age 25, Russ averaged four times as many assists per minute as Jordan did at age 25.

• At age 25, Russ averaged about 50% more points per minute than Jordan.

• Jordan, at age 25, averages about 50% more personal fouls per minute than Russ did at age 25.

As far as Shaq is concerned, let's see, now; how many games did he see Russell play?  Shaq's blabbering is very often an offensive foul in the game of discourse.  Lack of facts has never deterred him from expressing an opinion.

Sam

I tried to ignore the Russell comparison and redirect the conversation to the improvement of Jordan this season and Doc's role in that. Mission not accomplished.

Since the thread has become all about the Russell comparison, I'll add my two cents on that. As I stated in my first post, I really like Jordan, but it takes more than being an athletic rebounder and defender to compare to Bill Russell.

I don't like to make comparisons between players unless there are multiple facets of their games that are similar, beyond just statistical categories. The easiest and most logical comparison would be Kobe-MJ because Bryant literally modeled his game after MJ's and has the championships on his resume to be presented in a comparable light.

I don't think comparing Jordan to Russell makes sense on the grounds that he can rebound and block shots. A lot of guys that have come through the NBA have done that. Does that mean they all need to be compared to Russell as well?

I believe there should be a certain criteria met before a player can even be elevated into the discussion in the context of being compared to a legend.



KJ

As far as the comparison is involved, I'm quite sure Rosalie had the best comment of any of us:

"No comment."

I believe the original comment involved a couple of stylistic similarities and then, as often happens in our threads, the discussion became expanded in the direction of literal accomplishments.

Sam

k_j_88 wrote:I don't like to make comparisons between players unless there are multiple facets of their games that are similar, beyond just statistical categories. The easiest and most logical comparison would be Kobe-MJ because Bryant literally modeled his game after MJ's and has the championships on his resume to be presented in a comparable light.

I don't think comparing Jordan to Russell makes sense on the grounds that he can rebound and block shots. A lot of guys that have come through the NBA have done that. Does that mean they all need to be compared to Russell as well?

I believe there should be a certain criteria met before a player can even be elevated into the discussion in the context of being compared to a legend.



KJ

actually another big that reminds me of Russell is Serge Ibaka, I did see Russell play and again there are alot of bigs that I used as an example that their games and style of play and role are not like Russell. I obviously am a big fan of Bill Russell and my father talked about him like the way I talk about Dave Cowens, Bird and Pierce.

Sam

On that ability to hang in midair with the shooter/scorer doing his move and then jump again, I remember a big block that Russell did on Willis Reed where he did that double jump. I was probably 8 years old and remember my father shouting with glee right after that play that was during that 69 playoff run. Some may be offended that I dare compare a mere mortal to the great Bill Russell, well I am not comparing accomplishments, or career's as that would obviously be stupid and I'm not as dumb as I look. However Jordan's improvement, role and overall game is as important to his team's success as the great Chris Paul and Blake Griffen and like Russell he is not asked to carry the team on offense, but carries his team night in and night out with a huge load of defense and rebounding. Those who want to bash his stats as a rebounder or shot blocker saying they aren't as good as Russell are missing the point. This is not about stats, its more about impact, as eras are different and in this timeframe right now Jordan is huge to his teams success and has made a similar impact in this years playoff run as the young Russell did in his time many times.

Oh hes a legend you can't compare them, well I just did and I had fun. I've compared players from different eras as I'm sure we all have at some point. I used to say years ago that Barkley was like a combination of two players, Dr J and Wes Unseld and that he was a freak as I don't think we'll ever see a 6'5" player lead the league in rebounding again. I read an article years ago where the great Dave Cowens said Larry Bird was a combination of Dave Debusshere and Rick Barry.

People should stop being so uptight in general....I understand he won 11 championships in 13 years.

cow

RosalieTCeltics wrote:No comment

no comment to you too

Cow, I know you haven't been talking about accomplishments as much as style of play.  If you'll check back on this thread, you'll see that I wrote, "I believe the original comment involved a couple of stylistic similarities and then, as often happens in our threads, the discussion became expanded in the direction of literal accomplishments."

The problem is that the original headline was a definite attention-getter, but it also implicitly promised some substantiation of the words "The Second Coming of Bill Russell."

When the very first post after the headline didn't even mention Bill Russell, there was a lot of confusion as to what the headline was really intended to convey.  People interpreted it in whatever way it struck each of them.  When one publishes the written word, one cannot legislate how readers will interpret the published material.

Russell fans don't have to be "uptight" to support their hero.  Those who experienced the majority of his career have an emotional investment in him.  A provocative headline involving a perceived comparison with their hero is highly likely to be viewed as a challenge.  It's just human nature.

Suffice it to say that Jordan's defense and rebounding have improved substantially.  And maybe he displays a couple of stylistic traits that typified Russell.

Sam

Even more mystifying to me than that headline is your response to Rosalie. What's that supposed to mean?

Sam

Sam maybe you should ask her, with all due respect she said no comment and I reiterated her comment, since she didn't offer a view on anything, I had nothing to offer to say to her.



Sam you didn't see this?