The second coming of Bill Russell

tj you obviously are not intelligent enough to understand this thread, then you just want to whine on and prove your point. Sam got it right away, I am not comparing their accomplishments or stats, I am comparing they're playing style and role, playing to their strengths within the team and how they help the team. Dikembe Mutumbo was a lumbering space eater with size to block shots, he was no where near the leaper or athlete DeAndre Jordan is, his playing style was nothing like Russell's. When Russell first came into the league it was full of earthbound plodders, he was the first modern athlete to come in at the 5 and then right away everyone knew now things are different. Jordan has a definite athletic advantage in almost every match up, which Russell had in abundence back in his day. I'm not saying hes the most skilled or best, but his god given athleticism combined with his height and wingspan and leaping under Docs guidance/coaching has made him the best defensive 5 in this years playoffs IMHO. Theres a reason Shaq has been comparing him to Bill Russell as has Doc Rivers, obviously the kid is playing his defensive stopper/rebounding role very well. I'm not saying hes all the way there yet, but he has a similar playing style and is striving to be like Bill.

tjmakz wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:kj

I'm gonna have to educate you, in Jordans time the 2 best SG that he matched up with were Clyde Drexler and Mitch Richmond, who also played at Kansas and was a strong power 2 similar to Pierce in game. On the biggest stage, the NBA Finals he destroyed Clyde the Glide in the season that was Drexler's best year up to that point. Jordan left no doubt about his superiority, plus regularly eating up the Dan Marliejes, the John Starks and Jeff Hornaceks during the playoffs and Finals. A case could be made that Kobe had better competition as the game further evolved, however you put a young Vince Carter, T-Mac or Pierce on that team with Shaq and they win a ring just as easily. There were writers from LA that followed Pierce's career, he was an LA highschool legend/prodigy that used to say that exact thing and were open to swapping Kobe for Pierce, you never heard of any writers from Chicago that would say anything near that about Jordan.

Also on the biggest stage Paul Pierce kicked Kobes butt all over the floor during the 08 Finals, check out that 38 point vintage Pierce masterpiece in game 5, Pierce went right at Kobe that game, who was defenseless to stop him and he never had a vintage Kobe 40 plus game that whole series, did that ever happen to Jordan on the worlds biggest stage? Don't even get me started on 10, when Perk went down and Kobe shot like 6-25 in game 7 that the refs stole. There were 3 wings earlier Vince, T-Mac and Pierce that were close enough to him and ofcourse Lebron later that arguably were in a close enough conversation with Kobe. Jordan was head and shoulders ahead of the competition, no comparison, end of conversation when he played.

cow

Just a Jordan was a much better player than Kobe, Kobe was a much better player than Pierce.
Pierce is an all-star and HOFer but he is not an all time great player.
Paul finished in the top 10 of MVP voting 1 time.
Kobe finished in the top 5 of MVP voting 11 times.

In the 2008 NBA Finals, Kobe barely guarded Pierce.
LA was stuck with Radmonovic and Walton at SF.
Why don't you mention game 2 of the 2008 Finals when Kobe had 36 and Pierce had 6 on 2-14 shooting?

try to get your facts straight, in game 2 Pierce had 28 points on 9-16 from the field and Boston won that game going up 2-0.

as the series wore on Kobe was used more and more on Pierce as the other guys were having their troubles, well it didn't matter cause Pierce scored just as easily over Kobe in the 26 point comeback in game 4 and the 38 point explosion in game 5, check out those games with your eyes, Kobe is on Pierce alot as Vucuvic was on Ray Allen....as Phil Jackson was getting interviewed during game 4 they asked him whats wrong with his team and he was honest and snapped "too much Paul Pierce". Pierce's career highest scoring avg is against Lakers, as Lakers have a first team all NBA wing defender who I guess was too small to handle the Truth.

Jordan is at another level over Kobe, as Jordan never got so dominated by another wing type player ever in a Finals, and the gap between Kobe and Pierce has always been very close, Pierce showed with the right talent around him, he could lead a team to the title and had a coming out party that year.

Of course Jordan was at another level from Kobe. Jordan was the best player that ever played the sport.
That's not a knock against Kobe.

You are right. I should have remembered that Paul Pierce's 2-14 for 6 points was in game 3 of the 2008 Finals.

Paul played well in that series but he didn't face the same defense that Kobe had to face against Boston's great team defense.

Paul was not even near the same class of player that Kobe was.
Why didn't you address Kobe vs Paul's MVP votes over the years?

so Kobe got one MVP, whoopdedamndoo.

for all the volume shooting he did he should have got more, Pierces FG % and 3 point% are better. Kobe came into a great situation, joining Shaq right away, with all the attention Shaq demanded from a defense you would have thought he could have scored more with a better FG%. Pierce was always the defensive focus right away as the first option on many weak teams. So how come the Lakers had no one that could stop Pierce all those years while Kobe was making all defensive first team? guess Pierce isn't that bad after all, Kobe is a greater volume shooter than Pierce, to say Kobe is in some supreme higher class is just delusional, I think Pierce proved loud and clear hes in at least a similar class of player in 08.

You might want to check again to see who has a higher career fg percentage between Paul and Kobe. I'll give you one hint, it's not Paul...

So, you're going to get pumped up that for one season (2008) Paul might have been in a similar class to Kobe? Regular season or playoffs? Paul did play on the better team that season.

Here's each players 2008 playoff stats.

Paul: 19.7 ppg, 5.0 rebs, 4.6 assts, .441 FG%
Kobe: 30.1 ppg, 5.7 rebs, 5.6 assts, .479 FG%

Paul was a very good NBA player, yes a star.
But he was never a superstar.
Not nearly in the same league as Kobe.

Cow, no I didn't see it because you were talking about my last post, so I went back to my most recent post and my last post before that and didn't see it. When I did locate it, inn no way did it answer my question, which dealt with what your intent was by making the post.

As a moderator, I thought it was gratuitous (for which one definition is “being without meaning, cause or justification”), made no sense as a simple reiteration, and had no function other than to a mocking tone; and I was wondering whether there was some explanation other than that.

I realize it may seem a small point to you, and possibly to many others. But, as a moderator, I have to be sensitive to situations in which topics seem to be evolving from being topical debates to the point where they start to become personal. Unfortunately, such incidents can be warning signs that either a major verbal conflagration could be in the offing or, at the very least, someone could be unduly hurt by some personal slight.

It's an easy matter to go back over a thread (such as this one) and determine where it started to evolve from a debate featuring facts to the point where the tone became more personal. The warning signal can be as simple as aspersions on someone’s intelligence or more blatant, as happed to me recently when I was accused, in one thread, of lacking a pair of “real balls.” (I let it pass, but I didn’t forget it.)

I would ordinarily deal with this kind of thing in a more private manner. However, it’s occasionally appropriate to issue a general reminder—not aimed at any individual—that moderation of the board treads a very fine line in identifying potential problems before they proliferate without being overly sensitive and too quick to action. It’s certainly not a perfect system because it involves human judgment, but it’s an earnest effort to safeguard what many of us feel is the unique conviviality of our forum.

Sam

Sam I think your looking too much into it, again you would have to ask her.....

tj hes a 10 time all star, should have been 12, but he had that foot problem in 07 and should have made it in 01, hes a legit closer, future HoFer, if not for KG and Perk's injury that team should/could have won 3 in a row and he was their first scoring option and captain, basically their heart and soul. The guy could put up 40 or 50 on Kobe and Lebron. I'd say they are in a similar class.

I thought this is what Sam was referring to:

cowens/oldschool wrote:tj you obviously are not intelligent enough to understand this thread, then you just want to whine on and prove your point.

KJ

....and 25000 career points isn't bad either.

by the way tj FYI a few years ago a reporter asked Lebron who was his greatest rival, well his answer was Paul Pierce....everyone was expecting him to say that Laker wingman, but he didn't. Thats respect.

cowens/oldschool wrote:by the way tj FYI a few years ago a reporter asked Lebron who was his greatest rival, well his answer was Paul Pierce....everyone was expecting him to say that Laker wingman, but he didn't. Thats respect.

Of course LeBron respects Pierce.
Paul is a very good player and competitor.

Kobe is not going to be LeBron's greatest rival when they have never played against each other in a game that had any significance, other than ratings for Christmas Day games.

tjmakz wrote:You might want to check again to see who has a higher career fg percentage between Paul and Kobe. I'll give you one hint, it's not Paul...

So, you're going to get pumped up that for one season (2008) Paul might have been in a similar class to Kobe? Regular season or playoffs? Paul did play on the better team that season.

Here's each players 2008 playoff stats.

Paul: 19.7 ppg, 5.0 rebs, 4.6 assts, .441 FG%
Kobe: 30.1 ppg, 5.7 rebs, 5.6 assts, .479 FG%

Paul was a very good NBA player, yes a star.
But he was never a superstar.
Not nearly in the same league as Kobe.

on those playoff stats basketball is a team game, Paul was playing with other talented players, his role didn't require him to put up 30 a night, when he played with the inconsistent Antoine Walker, Pierce did put up bigger numbers. Either way hes proved throughout his career he is a big game player....and we know Kobe's stats against that historic defense in that years Finals were no where near the stats he put up to get there.

In looking at the Celtics 2008 playoffs, if Paul would have put up 30 a night Boston might have had an easier time getting to the Finals.
They beat Atlanta in 7 games, then they beat Cleveland in 7 games, then they were tied 2-2 with Detroit who they beat in 6 games.

It's not like Paul and all of the "other talented players" were steamrolling through the playoffs.  

I don't blame Kobe for he shooting states against Boston. I don't think he ever played against a defense as good as Boston had that season and for many seasons. Paul never had to face a defense like Kobe did against Boston.

that sure was a historic defense