The second coming of Bill Russell

sam wrote:Cow, I know you haven't been talking about accomplishments as much as style of play.  If you'll check back on this thread, you'll see that I wrote, "I believe the original comment involved a couple of stylistic similarities and then, as often happens in our threads, the discussion became expanded in the direction of literal accomplishments."

The problem is that the original headline was a definite attention-getter, but it also implicitly promised some substantiation of the words "The Second Coming of Bill Russell."

When the very first post after the headline didn't even mention Bill Russell, there was a lot of confusion as to what the headline was really intended to convey.  People interpreted it in whatever way it struck each of them.  When one publishes the written word, one cannot legislate how readers will interpret the published material.

Russell fans don't have to be "uptight" to support their hero.  Those who experienced the majority of his career have an emotional investment in him.  A provocative headline involving a perceived comparison with their hero is highly likely to be viewed as a challenge.  It's just human nature.

Suffice it to say that Jordan's defense and rebounding have improved substantially.  And maybe he displays a couple of stylistic traits that typified Russell.

Sam

Even more mystifying to me than that headline is your response to Rosalie.  What's that supposed to mean?

Sam

right Sam you did back me on stylistic comparison....I didn't mention Russell other than saying how great Jordan's defense and rebounding were in last series, which I believe were some of Russell's strengths. My point was not about comparing him to Russell, more about complimenting his impact in his role within his team, and to me his contributions in the last series were somewhat Russell like, not totally as big or the same as Russell's actual impact, as you would know more about that than anybody, but Jordan's impact was huge nonetheless.

k_j_88 wrote:I don't like to make comparisons between players unless there are multiple facets of their games that are similar, beyond just statistical categories. The easiest and most logical comparison would be Kobe-MJ because Bryant literally modeled his game after MJ's and has the championships on his resume to be presented in a comparable light.

I don't think comparing Jordan to Russell makes sense on the grounds that he can rebound and block shots. A lot of guys that have come through the NBA have done that. Does that mean they all need to be compared to Russell as well?

I believe there should be a certain criteria met before a player can even be elevated into the discussion in the context of being compared to a legend.



KJ

I actually think Jordan was so much more dominant than Kobe in his era that its not even close. Jordan really got the upperhand on everybody and every wing in his era, where Kobe got his butt kicked all the time by guys like McGrady, Lebron and Pierce. An argument could be made that the only reason he won was because of Shaq, as Jordan had no challengers to his greatness and what I saw of Kobe he wasn't even the best wing in his era.

LOL....reading this whole thread is funny.

while I have no problem comparing todays players with those of years past ....lets all agree the final word on this one should be AFTER Jordan gets at least ONE RING.

case closed...IMO, because I doubt Jordan will get even one.

Cow,

I WISH I knew that much about Russell, but I believe that only Bill Russell really knows about Bill Russell in depth.

As I said, I believe the headline was the root of most of the problem because it was enticing enough to attract attention but not succinct enough to channel the expectations of readers in your desired stylistic direction.

For what it's worth, I find that, especially when I write about the old Celtics (which I've been known to do once or twice), I have to cover myself with all sorts of qualifiers up front. (Like the difficulty of comparing eras, or—in this instance—the distinction between style and accomplishments.) Otherwise, I find myself subject to all sorts of interpretations (some very imaginative) of what I'm saying.

Of course, in my case, I also have to pass my remarks through a filter of what's an appropriate impression for a moderator to leave. At least you don't have to be constrained by that one.

Sam

Cow, You're certainly right that Kobe couldn't hold Michael Jordan's jockstrap. As for DeAndre Jordan, as Lloyd Bentsen once said, "I knew Jack Kennedy. He was a friend of mine, and you're no Jack kennedy." The same applies to D. Jordan compared to Bill Russell.

That said, I do have to give enormous props to Doc for the way he has coached De Andre and Blake this season, bringing out the best in their games. Plus, he handled the Don Sterling fiasco with as much grace and human dignity as I've ever seen in a public arena. My hats off to Doc as both a man and a coach. We were darned lucky to have him. For his sake, I am glad he moved to the Clips. He would have had a miserable, thankless year retooling the 2013-14 Celtics, and to what good, other than player development? Now at least we have another #1 draft pick.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

I actually think Jordan was so much more dominant than Kobe in his era that its not even close. Jordan really got the upperhand on everybody and every wing in his era, where Kobe got his butt kicked all the time by guys like McGrady, Lebron and Pierce. An argument could be made that the only reason he won was because of Shaq, as Jordan had no challengers to his greatness and what I saw of Kobe he wasn't even the best wing in his era.

Michael Jordan was not the only great player on those Bulls teams. Michael did not win any titles until he had another HOF wing in Pippen to alleviate a great deal of pressure off his back. You should know that no championship is ever won alone.

He only won because of Shaq? No. He only won because those Lakers teams had the right personnel and coaching. A lot of times, Shaq actually fouled out of games, leaving Kobe to take over said games. Consider the fact that Robert Horry hit big shots for them. Derek Fisher was a reliable point guard. Don't forget that Kobe also won 2 rings in the post O'Neal era.

So are you saying Pierce, McGrady, and Lebron were all better than Kobe during his prime? McGrady couldn't stay on the court. Lebron choked until he went to South Beach (no surprise there). Pierce, who I think the world of, was never quite the dominant force that Kobe was.



KJ

kj

I'm gonna have to educate you, in Jordans time the 2 best SG that he matched up with were Clyde Drexler and Mitch Richmond, who also played at Kansas and was a strong power 2 similar to Pierce in game. On the biggest stage, the NBA Finals he destroyed Clyde the Glide in the season that was Drexler's best year up to that point. Jordan left no doubt about his superiority, plus regularly eating up the Dan Marliejes, the John Starks and Jeff Hornaceks during the playoffs and Finals. A case could be made that Kobe had better competition as the game further evolved, however you put a young Vince Carter, T-Mac or Pierce on that team with Shaq and they win a ring just as easily. There were writers from LA that followed Pierce's career, he was an LA highschool legend/prodigy that used to say that exact thing and were open to swapping Kobe for Pierce, you never heard of any writers from Chicago that would say anything near that about Jordan.

Also on the biggest stage Paul Pierce kicked Kobes butt all over the floor during the 08 Finals, check out that 38 point vintage Pierce masterpiece in game 5, Pierce went right at Kobe that game, who was defenseless to stop him and he never had a vintage Kobe 40 plus game that whole series, did that ever happen to Jordan on the worlds biggest stage? Don't even get me started on 10, when Perk went down and Kobe shot like 6-25 in game 7 that the refs stole. There were 3 wings earlier Vince, T-Mac and Pierce that were close enough to him and ofcourse Lebron later that arguably were in a close enough conversation with Kobe. Jordan was head and shoulders ahead of the competition, no comparison, end of conversation when he played.

cow

worcester wrote:Cow, You're certainly right that Kobe couldn't hold Michael Jordan's jockstrap. As for DeAndre Jordan, as Lloyd Bentsen once said, "I knew Jack Kennedy. He was a friend of mine, and you're no Jack kennedy." The same applies to D. Jordan compared to Bill Russell.

That said, I do have to give enormous props to Doc for the way he  has coached De Andre and Blake this season, bringing out the best in their games. Plus, he handled the Don Sterling fiasco with as much grace and human dignity as I've ever seen in a public arena. My hats off to Doc as both a man and a coach. We were darned lucky to have him. For his sake, I am glad he moved to the Clips. He would have had a miserable, thankless year retooling the 2013-14 Celtics, and to what good, other than player development? Now at least we have another #1 draft pick.

agree with everything you said worse, when I read about Russell and Wilt, I've read many writers and players and HoF players that talk about how great Russell was in the clutch, that he made so many big plays on defense and big rebounds, etc and that Wilt was the biggest choker in the clutch of so many playoff games, that he even got less aggressive because he wanted to preserve his record of never fouling out of a game. Bill Simmons Big Book of Basketball has loads of factual information about Russells greatness in the clutch and Wilts shrinkage, no pun intended LOL.

When I started this thread the Clippers had just survived an epic game 7 and as much as I was already impressed with DeAndre Jordans play during that series, in the last minutes he made great intangible play after another and another, he had a block from behind that ignited a perfect fast break, a key tip in, big boards, all in a close out game at the end.....so I deemed him worthy for a night of a comparison to Mr Russell.

cowens/oldschool wrote:kj

I'm gonna have to educate you, in Jordans time the 2 best SG that he matched up with were Clyde Drexler and Mitch Richmond, who also played at Kansas and was a strong power 2 similar to Pierce in game. On the biggest stage, the NBA Finals he destroyed Clyde the Glide in the season that was Drexler's best year up to that point. Jordan left no doubt about his superiority, plus regularly eating up the Dan Marliejes, the John Starks and Jeff Hornaceks during the playoffs and Finals. A case could be made that Kobe had better competition as the game further evolved, however you put a young Vince Carter, T-Mac or Pierce on that team with Shaq and they win a ring just as easily. There were writers from LA that followed Pierce's career, he was an LA highschool legend/prodigy that used to say that exact thing and were open to swapping Kobe for Pierce, you never heard of any writers from Chicago that would say anything near that about Jordan.

Also on the biggest stage Paul Pierce kicked Kobes butt all over the floor during the 08 Finals, check out that 38 point vintage Pierce masterpiece in game 5, Pierce went right at Kobe that game, who was defenseless to stop him and he never had a vintage Kobe 40 plus game that whole series, did that ever happen to Jordan on the worlds biggest stage? Don't even get me started on 10, when Perk went down and Kobe shot like 6-25 in game 7 that the refs stole. There were 3 wings earlier Vince, T-Mac and Pierce that were close enough to him and ofcourse Lebron later that arguably were in a close enough conversation with Kobe. Jordan was head and shoulders ahead of the competition, no comparison, end of conversation when he played.

cow

Just a Jordan was a much better player than Kobe, Kobe was a much better player than Pierce.
Pierce is an all-star and HOFer but he is not an all time great player.
Paul finished in the top 10 of MVP voting 1 time.
Kobe finished in the top 5 of MVP voting 11 times.

In the 2008 NBA Finals, Kobe barely guarded Pierce.
LA was stuck with Radmonovic and Walton at SF.
Why don't you mention game 2 of the 2008 Finals when Kobe had 36 and Pierce had 6 on 2-14 shooting?

cowens/oldschool wrote:

RosalieTCeltics wrote:No comment

no comment to you too

Rude comment to Rosalie.

I am pretty sure Rosalie didn't want to comment because the DeAndre Jordan to Russell comparison is quite comical to discuss.

cowens/oldschool wrote:agree with everything you said worse, when I read about Russell and Wilt, I've read many writers and players and HoF players that talk about how great Russell was in the clutch, that he made so many big plays on defense and big rebounds, etc and that Wilt was the biggest choker in the clutch of so many playoff games, that he even got less aggressive because he wanted to preserve his record of never fouling out of a game. Bill Simmons Big Book of Basketball has loads of factual information about Russells greatness in the clutch and Wilts shrinkage, no pun intended LOL.

I'd stay away from relying on Simmons, an unabashed Celtic fan, to provide proper perspective on the Russell-Wilt rivalry. He tilts Celtic by default, but he is basically the spokesman for the anti-Wilt crowd. There are plenty of other accounts with "factual" information that provide a more balanced assessment of both players and their rivalry. Russell was a tremendous clutch performer, but to paint Wilt as "the biggest choker in the clutch" is just not true and isn't fair to the nature of their rivalry, which was one of the greatest in the history of sports. You don't get a rivalry of that magnitude with one player being great and the other being a choker.

cowens/oldschool wrote:When I started this thread the Clippers had just survived an epic game 7 and as much as I was already impressed with DeAndre Jordans play during that series, in the last minutes he made great intangible play after another and another, he had a block from behind that ignited a perfect fast break, a key tip in, big boards, all in a close out game at the end.....so I deemed him worthy for a night of a comparison to Mr Russell.

As I said in my first post, I agree with you that Jordan has made significant strides this year and that Doc had an integral role in that improvement, but I'll have to disagree on Jordan's performance in game 7 being Russell-esque in nature. Jordan played very well and was indeed a difference-maker at the end, but let's get real here -- Golden State had zero centers, and it takes more than getting blocks, dunks, and rebounds against a bunch of 6'8" guys to evoke a comparison to Russell. He put up impressive stats against the undersized Warriors, but they barely escaped that series despite their overwhelming size advantage. They won impressively against OKC last night, but Jordan had only seven points, five rebounds, zero blocks, and was 1-8 on free throws when OKC went to the "hack-a-Jordan." I'm sure he'll have better games ahead in the series, but let's not get too hyped up based solely on his performance against the Golden State midget contingent.

cowens/oldschool wrote:kj

I'm gonna have to educate you, in Jordans time the 2 best SG that he matched up with were Clyde Drexler and Mitch Richmond, who also played at Kansas and was a strong power 2 similar to Pierce in game. On the biggest stage, the NBA Finals he destroyed Clyde the Glide in the season that was Drexler's best year up to that point. Jordan left no doubt about his superiority, plus regularly eating up the Dan Marliejes, the John Starks and Jeff Hornaceks during the playoffs and Finals. A case could be made that Kobe had better competition as the game further evolved, however you put a young Vince Carter, T-Mac or Pierce on that team with Shaq and they win a ring just as easily. There were writers from LA that followed Pierce's career, he was an LA highschool legend/prodigy that used to say that exact thing and were open to swapping Kobe for Pierce, you never heard of any writers from Chicago that would say anything near that about Jordan.

Also on the biggest stage Paul Pierce kicked Kobes butt all over the floor during the 08 Finals, check out that 38 point vintage Pierce masterpiece in game 5, Pierce went right at Kobe that game, who was defenseless to stop him and he never had a vintage Kobe 40 plus game that whole series, did that ever happen to Jordan on the worlds biggest stage? Don't even get me started on 10, when Perk went down and Kobe shot like 6-25 in game 7 that the refs stole. There were 3 wings earlier Vince, T-Mac and Pierce that were close enough to him and ofcourse Lebron later that arguably were in a close enough conversation with Kobe. Jordan was head and shoulders ahead of the competition, no comparison, end of conversation when he played.

cow

You aren't educating anyone...

-For starters, MJ said that Bryant is the only one he could see being compared to himself. Just looking at how Bryant modeled his game after MJ and his success, he is at least in the conversation. I was in no way, shape, or form saying he was MJ's equal or better.

-Pierce is a great player, a champion, a future HOFer, a legit go-to guy. He's the kind of player that most guys wish they could even get a sniff of the success he's had. But he was nowhere near Kobe in terms of just being an absolute terror for opposing teams to defend. Bryant and Pierce also play different positions. Pierce is significantly bigger than Bryant, and that makes a huge difference when it comes to defense when you're giving up a good 30 pounds or so.

-McGrady couldn't stay on the court, despite his talent. Vince Carter had a few playoff runs but never got the deal done. They are comparable to Bryant, but when it's all said and done, Kobe will be regarded as the best of his generation. I don't really consider Lebron to be apart of that generation.

-Yeah, Kobe shot poorly against a Boston team that was known for great team defense. Lebron and Wade and pretty much every other star in the league struggled against Boston's defense during that time. What's your point?



KJ

Thanks for the laughs, cow. Maybe if you had titled your post, 'DeAndre has Russell moments', it wouldn't have caused so much anguish.

No one compares to Bill. He changed the way the game is played. It's great to see a guy like Jordan take a page out of that book, because it's an unselfish, team-oriented style of play. It doesn't surprise me that the coach who inspired it was Doc Rivers. I'm actually hoping that the Clips win it all just so Jordan gets a ring. He deserves it. A second-round draft pick. Jeez.

Kobe is as vastly overrated just as Paul is vastly underrated. The block at the end of Game 7 vs. Toronto was magnificent. I doubt Kobe ever made a clutch defensive play to match. Typically, the wire service story in Florida hardly even mentioned it, saying merely that the Toronto player had his shot attempt blocked with a second left. There was no mention of who did it. If it had been one of the media darlings (MJ, Kobe (as if), or Lebum), it would have stolen the story.

It's the same reason Bill Russell is rarely mentioned as the greatest player of all time. The media don't understand the importance of defense and team play. Go Ciips and Nets!!!

Cow,

I think you might have neglected my earlier question asking you what your response to Rosalie was all about.

Sam

tjmakz wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:kj

I'm gonna have to educate you, in Jordans time the 2 best SG that he matched up with were Clyde Drexler and Mitch Richmond, who also played at Kansas and was a strong power 2 similar to Pierce in game. On the biggest stage, the NBA Finals he destroyed Clyde the Glide in the season that was Drexler's best year up to that point. Jordan left no doubt about his superiority, plus regularly eating up the Dan Marliejes, the John Starks and Jeff Hornaceks during the playoffs and Finals. A case could be made that Kobe had better competition as the game further evolved, however you put a young Vince Carter, T-Mac or Pierce on that team with Shaq and they win a ring just as easily. There were writers from LA that followed Pierce's career, he was an LA highschool legend/prodigy that used to say that exact thing and were open to swapping Kobe for Pierce, you never heard of any writers from Chicago that would say anything near that about Jordan.

Also on the biggest stage Paul Pierce kicked Kobes butt all over the floor during the 08 Finals, check out that 38 point vintage Pierce masterpiece in game 5, Pierce went right at Kobe that game, who was defenseless to stop him and he never had a vintage Kobe 40 plus game that whole series, did that ever happen to Jordan on the worlds biggest stage? Don't even get me started on 10, when Perk went down and Kobe shot like 6-25 in game 7 that the refs stole. There were 3 wings earlier Vince, T-Mac and Pierce that were close enough to him and ofcourse Lebron later that arguably were in a close enough conversation with Kobe. Jordan was head and shoulders ahead of the competition, no comparison, end of conversation when he played.

cow

Just a Jordan was a much better player than Kobe, Kobe was a much better player than Pierce.
Pierce is an all-star and HOFer but he is not an all time great player.
Paul finished in the top 10 of MVP voting 1 time.
Kobe finished in the top 5 of MVP voting 11 times.

In the 2008 NBA Finals, Kobe barely guarded Pierce.
LA was stuck with Radmonovic and Walton at SF.
Why don't you mention game 2 of the 2008 Finals when Kobe had 36 and Pierce had 6 on 2-14 shooting?

try to get your facts straight, in game 2 Pierce had 28 points on 9-16 from the field and Boston won that game going up 2-0.

as the series wore on Kobe was used more and more on Pierce as the other guys were having their troubles, well it didn't matter cause Pierce scored just as easily over Kobe in the 26 point comeback in game 4 and the 38 point explosion in game 5, check out those games with your eyes, Kobe is on Pierce alot as Vucuvic was on Ray Allen....as Phil Jackson was getting interviewed during game 4 they asked him whats wrong with his team and he was honest and snapped "too much Paul Pierce". Pierce's career highest scoring avg is against Lakers, as Lakers have a first team all NBA wing defender who I guess was too small to handle the Truth.

Jordan is at another level over Kobe, as Jordan never got so dominated by another wing type player ever in a Finals, and the gap between Kobe and Pierce has always been very close, Pierce showed with the right talent around him, he could lead a team to the title and had a coming out party that year.

tjmakz wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

RosalieTCeltics wrote:No comment

no comment to you too

Rude comment to Rosalie.

I am pretty sure Rosalie didn't want to comment because the DeAndre Jordan to Russell comparison is quite comical to discuss.

I've had the pleasure of meeting Rosie in person and we've given each other a nice hug, she knows this is all fun and about basketball.....should learn not to assume things and mind your own business.

sam wrote:Cow,

I think you might have neglected my earlier question asking you what your response to Rosalie was all about.

Sam

I answered that right after your last post.

k_j_88 wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:kj

I'm gonna have to educate you, in Jordans time the 2 best SG that he matched up with were Clyde Drexler and Mitch Richmond, who also played at Kansas and was a strong power 2 similar to Pierce in game. On the biggest stage, the NBA Finals he destroyed Clyde the Glide in the season that was Drexler's best year up to that point. Jordan left no doubt about his superiority, plus regularly eating up the Dan Marliejes, the John Starks and Jeff Hornaceks during the playoffs and Finals. A case could be made that Kobe had better competition as the game further evolved, however you put a young Vince Carter, T-Mac or Pierce on that team with Shaq and they win a ring just as easily. There were writers from LA that followed Pierce's career, he was an LA highschool legend/prodigy that used to say that exact thing and were open to swapping Kobe for Pierce, you never heard of any writers from Chicago that would say anything near that about Jordan.

Also on the biggest stage Paul Pierce kicked Kobes butt all over the floor during the 08 Finals, check out that 38 point vintage Pierce masterpiece in game 5, Pierce went right at Kobe that game, who was defenseless to stop him and he never had a vintage Kobe 40 plus game that whole series, did that ever happen to Jordan on the worlds biggest stage? Don't even get me started on 10, when Perk went down and Kobe shot like 6-25 in game 7 that the refs stole. There were 3 wings earlier Vince, T-Mac and Pierce that were close enough to him and ofcourse Lebron later that arguably were in a close enough conversation with Kobe. Jordan was head and shoulders ahead of the competition, no comparison, end of conversation when he played.

cow

You aren't educating anyone...

-For starters, MJ said that Bryant is the only one he could see being compared to himself. Just looking at how Bryant modeled his game after MJ and his success, he is at least in the conversation. I was in no way, shape, or form saying he was MJ's equal or better.

-Pierce is a great player, a champion, a future HOFer, a legit go-to guy. He's the kind of player that most guys wish they could even get a sniff of the success he's had. But he was nowhere near Kobe in terms of just being an absolute terror for opposing teams to defend. Bryant and Pierce also play different positions. Pierce is significantly bigger than Bryant, and that makes a huge difference when it comes to defense when you're giving up a good 30 pounds or so.

-McGrady couldn't stay on the court, despite his talent. Vince Carter had a few playoff runs but never got the deal done. They are comparable to Bryant, but when it's all said and done, Kobe will be regarded as the best of his generation. I don't really consider Lebron to be apart of that generation.

-Yeah, Kobe shot poorly against a Boston team that was known for great team defense. Lebron and Wade and pretty much every other star in the league struggled against Boston's defense during that time. What's your point?



KJ

I'm not saying T-Mac or Pierce are better than Kobe. I am saying they are all close enough that during their primes nobody had a significant edge, whoever was in a better zone that night could get it going on the other. Young T-Mac won 3 scoring titles, I understand Kobe was playing with the most dominant big at the same time and had to play second option and was great at it, but T-Mac could also defend and score inside and outside and tell me he couldn't win if he had Shaq in the middle? Kobe also had a significant size advantage playing mostly at the 2, while Pierce and T-Mac were constantly going against bigger defenders night in and night out and obviously doing very well.

Outside wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:agree with everything you said worse, when I read about Russell and Wilt, I've read many writers and players and HoF players that talk about how great Russell was in the clutch, that he made so many big plays on defense and big rebounds, etc and that Wilt was the biggest choker in the clutch of so many playoff games, that he even got less aggressive because he wanted to preserve his record of never fouling out of a game. Bill Simmons Big Book of Basketball has loads of factual information about Russells greatness in the clutch and Wilts shrinkage, no pun intended LOL.

I'd stay away from relying on Simmons, an unabashed Celtic fan, to provide proper perspective on the Russell-Wilt rivalry. He tilts Celtic by default, but he is basically the spokesman for the anti-Wilt crowd. There are plenty of other accounts with "factual" information that provide a more balanced assessment of both players and their rivalry. Russell was a tremendous clutch performer, but to paint Wilt as "the biggest choker in the clutch" is just not true and isn't fair to the nature of their rivalry, which was one of the greatest in the history of sports. You don't get a rivalry of that magnitude with one player being great and the other being a choker.

cowens/oldschool wrote:When I started this thread the Clippers had just survived an epic game 7 and as much as I was already impressed with DeAndre Jordans play during that series, in the last minutes he made great intangible play after another and another, he had a block from behind that ignited a perfect fast break, a key tip in, big boards, all in a close out game at the end.....so I deemed him worthy for a night of a comparison to Mr Russell.

As I said in my first post, I agree with you that Jordan has made significant strides this year and that Doc had an integral role in that improvement, but I'll have to disagree on Jordan's performance in game 7 being Russell-esque in nature. Jordan played very well and was indeed a difference-maker at the end, but let's get real here -- Golden State had zero centers, and it takes more than getting blocks, dunks, and rebounds against a bunch of 6'8" guys to evoke a comparison to Russell. He put up impressive stats against the undersized Warriors, but they barely escaped that series despite their overwhelming size advantage. They won impressively against OKC last night, but Jordan had only seven points, five rebounds, zero blocks, and was 1-8 on free throws when OKC went to the "hack-a-Jordan." I'm sure he'll have better games ahead in the series, but let's not get too hyped up based solely on his performance against the Golden State midget contingent.

I thought Jordan was very effective in his role last night, as Chris Paul was on fire and Clips were building their lead in first half, were many times Jordan left his man to challenge a midrange shot by Westbrook and Durant, he stopped their drive right away and turned that attempt into a challenged mid range shot that missed.

Cow,

I don't see any response from you after either of my last two posts. I see a response to TJ in which you told him to learn to stop assuming things and mind his own business. Was that the response you intended for me?

Sam

I just typed "Sam you didn't see this" on that post thinking it would move to here, but it didn't, it stayed there....look for it on page 2 kind of in the middle.

Sam its the 5th post from the top on pg 2.

k_j_88 wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:kj

I'm gonna have to educate you, in Jordans time the 2 best SG that he matched up with were Clyde Drexler and Mitch Richmond, who also played at Kansas and was a strong power 2 similar to Pierce in game. On the biggest stage, the NBA Finals he destroyed Clyde the Glide in the season that was Drexler's best year up to that point. Jordan left no doubt about his superiority, plus regularly eating up the Dan Marliejes, the John Starks and Jeff Hornaceks during the playoffs and Finals. A case could be made that Kobe had better competition as the game further evolved, however you put a young Vince Carter, T-Mac or Pierce on that team with Shaq and they win a ring just as easily. There were writers from LA that followed Pierce's career, he was an LA highschool legend/prodigy that used to say that exact thing and were open to swapping Kobe for Pierce, you never heard of any writers from Chicago that would say anything near that about Jordan.

Also on the biggest stage Paul Pierce kicked Kobes butt all over the floor during the 08 Finals, check out that 38 point vintage Pierce masterpiece in game 5, Pierce went right at Kobe that game, who was defenseless to stop him and he never had a vintage Kobe 40 plus game that whole series, did that ever happen to Jordan on the worlds biggest stage? Don't even get me started on 10, when Perk went down and Kobe shot like 6-25 in game 7 that the refs stole. There were 3 wings earlier Vince, T-Mac and Pierce that were close enough to him and ofcourse Lebron later that arguably were in a close enough conversation with Kobe. Jordan was head and shoulders ahead of the competition, no comparison, end of conversation when he played.

cow

You aren't educating anyone...

-For starters, MJ said that Bryant is the only one he could see being compared to himself. Just looking at how Bryant modeled his game after MJ and his success, he is at least in the conversation. I was in no way, shape, or form saying he was MJ's equal or better.

-Pierce is a great player, a champion, a future HOFer, a legit go-to guy. He's the kind of player that most guys wish they could even get a sniff of the success he's had. But he was nowhere near Kobe in terms of just being an absolute terror for opposing teams to defend. Bryant and Pierce also play different positions. Pierce is significantly bigger than Bryant, and that makes a huge difference when it comes to defense when you're giving up a good 30 pounds or so.

-McGrady couldn't stay on the court, despite his talent. Vince Carter had a few playoff runs but never got the deal done. They are comparable to Bryant, but when it's all said and done, Kobe will be regarded as the best of his generation. I don't really consider Lebron to be apart of that generation.

-Yeah, Kobe shot poorly against a Boston team that was known for great team defense. Lebron and Wade and pretty much every other star in the league struggled against Boston's defense during that time. What's your point?



KJ

another point that I forgot that I meant to show that you should have got was that Jordan never struggled against a defense in a Finals to the extent that Kobe did against us and against the Pistons one year too. Jordan was 6-0 in Finals, whereas Kobe had many a Finals he was very ordinary compared to MJ. Bill Russell had Wilt, Magic and Larry had each other, Jordan once he got it, had no peers that could even challenge him.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:kj

I'm gonna have to educate you, in Jordans time the 2 best SG that he matched up with were Clyde Drexler and Mitch Richmond, who also played at Kansas and was a strong power 2 similar to Pierce in game. On the biggest stage, the NBA Finals he destroyed Clyde the Glide in the season that was Drexler's best year up to that point. Jordan left no doubt about his superiority, plus regularly eating up the Dan Marliejes, the John Starks and Jeff Hornaceks during the playoffs and Finals. A case could be made that Kobe had better competition as the game further evolved, however you put a young Vince Carter, T-Mac or Pierce on that team with Shaq and they win a ring just as easily. There were writers from LA that followed Pierce's career, he was an LA highschool legend/prodigy that used to say that exact thing and were open to swapping Kobe for Pierce, you never heard of any writers from Chicago that would say anything near that about Jordan.

Also on the biggest stage Paul Pierce kicked Kobes butt all over the floor during the 08 Finals, check out that 38 point vintage Pierce masterpiece in game 5, Pierce went right at Kobe that game, who was defenseless to stop him and he never had a vintage Kobe 40 plus game that whole series, did that ever happen to Jordan on the worlds biggest stage? Don't even get me started on 10, when Perk went down and Kobe shot like 6-25 in game 7 that the refs stole. There were 3 wings earlier Vince, T-Mac and Pierce that were close enough to him and ofcourse Lebron later that arguably were in a close enough conversation with Kobe. Jordan was head and shoulders ahead of the competition, no comparison, end of conversation when he played.

cow

Just a Jordan was a much better player than Kobe, Kobe was a much better player than Pierce.
Pierce is an all-star and HOFer but he is not an all time great player.
Paul finished in the top 10 of MVP voting 1 time.
Kobe finished in the top 5 of MVP voting 11 times.

In the 2008 NBA Finals, Kobe barely guarded Pierce.
LA was stuck with Radmonovic and Walton at SF.
Why don't you mention game 2 of the 2008 Finals when Kobe had 36 and Pierce had 6 on 2-14 shooting?

try to get your facts straight, in game 2 Pierce had 28 points on 9-16 from the field and Boston won that game going up 2-0.

as the series wore on Kobe was used more and more on Pierce as the other guys were having their troubles, well it didn't matter cause Pierce scored just as easily over Kobe in the 26 point comeback in game 4 and the 38 point explosion in game 5, check out those games with your eyes, Kobe is on Pierce alot as Vucuvic was on Ray Allen....as Phil Jackson was getting interviewed during game 4 they asked him whats wrong with his team and he was honest and snapped "too much Paul Pierce". Pierce's career highest scoring avg is against Lakers, as Lakers have a first team all NBA wing defender who I guess was too small to handle the Truth.

Jordan is at another level over Kobe, as Jordan never got so dominated by another wing type player ever in a Finals, and the gap between Kobe and Pierce has always been very close, Pierce showed with the right talent around him, he could lead a team to the title and had a coming out party that year.

Of course Jordan was at another level from Kobe. Jordan was the best player that ever played the sport.
That's not a knock against Kobe.

You are right. I should have remembered that Paul Pierce's 2-14 for 6 points was in game 3 of the 2008 Finals.

Paul played well in that series but he didn't face the same defense that Kobe had to face against Boston's great team defense.

Paul was not even near the same class of player that Kobe was.
Why didn't you address Kobe vs Paul's MVP votes over the years?

To me the title of this thread is just absurd.
People think LeBron dissed Russell with his Mt. Rushmore comments.
To say DeAndre Jordan is the second coming of Bill Russell, that is just crazy talk.

If someone told me Jordan is the second coming of Dikembe Mutumbo, I'd say, that could be a pretty fair comparison. But, Russell, no way...