Re: What Is Necessary to turn Celtic Season Around

by **sdceltfan** Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:58 pm

Sam, I would not want to coach the Celtics with the lineup they have. At a time when the league is getting more athletic and quick, the Celtics are getting older and slower. Teams that run for 4 quarters and play an open court pick the Celtics apart. The loss of Posey and Garnett's injury along with opposition solving a few of the Celtics'defense problems make the possibility of this team reaching the finals very small.

Yes, Doc has a quandary every night. The manner in which the Celtics play requires great ball management, few fouls, professional decisions. Much like the Knicks of old. This will not happen because the Celtics are not a good passing team as a whole. Add to that the fact that Pierce and Ray Allen decision-making are certainly not the best. Perkins handles the ball enough for 3 to 4 turnovers a game. Throw in TA and House and you see why floor management will never be this team's strong suit.

Also, the Celtics commit too many unnecessary fouls. No, this team would frustrate the hell out of me, as you can tell by my posts.

A person has to ask if you want these basketball greats to retire as Celtics, or do you wish to remain in competition for the NBA title. This team simply is not athletic enough or quick enooufg to win the title. They simply cannot sustain energy enough to be there at season's end.

It is sacriligious to say, but I personally would trade Pierce before Ray. I know, again, a lot of posters would be ready to tar and feather me, but I haven't been wrong very often - you must admit. You would get more for Pierce, clear more money, and get more movement in your offense. The Celtics had 29 assists the other night. Do you really think the Celtics would have had that total with Pierce playing?

Pierce has lost a step already this year, as he did last year. It will be a step and a hlf next year. Ray Allen has adjusted his game this year. He is driving more. Pierce' offensive game hasn't changed the last 4 years. He plays a great defense when he is not brooding. When he is brooding his complete game falls apart.

No, I would not want to be Doc, but then I would play youngsters more, and Tony Allen much more in 4th quarters. Doc is between a rock and a hard place with these veterans. The Celtics have made their bed, now they must sleep in it.

Go Celtics!!

by **jeb** Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:09 pm

sdcelt

I dont think pp is healthy. his knee is still sore. he will get his lift back. As to the iso ball. look what we do when we let rondo do his job! and we cant play the whole game one way and the last 5 minutes pp's way...c'mon doc!

by **Sam** Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:37 pm

SD,

I honestly haven't been keeping track of who's been right and who's been wrong through the years concerning the Celtics. Personally, I
just try to muddle along and fake it a lot.

I prefer to delay a definitive evaluation of the team until it's operating at or close to the peak of its potential—whatever that potential happens to be. I believe that hasn't been the situation all year long, and it certainly isn't the situation now. But at least things finally seem to be headed gradually in that direction.

When I think they're getting nearly as much as they can out of their resources, I'll be able to give my muddled assessment of how good or bad they really are. Until then, I just prefer to urge them on toward fulfilling their potential and not to tilt at windmills.

Sam

by **Jerry Tarkanian** Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:59 pm

I tend to err on the side of athleticism and chemistry and do not feel the C's group as constituted has had an opportunity to showcase either.

Injuries have necessitated roster and rotation decisions that would work to any Coach's detriment as well as any fan's frustration. As such I can understand both the negative postings and the seeming sense of urgency to do something....anything....to elicit a quick fix.

Any move made would need to address at once team chemistry and an upgrade in athleticism while maintaining title aspirations this year and going forward.

Not having seen the C's as much as ANY of the group I respect their opinions greatly. I can only see upside in gaining player(s) that will impact immediately and long term. There DO seem to be teams that might sacrifice young stars for expiring contracts, and that strategy might serve the Celts well for the next 3-5 years.

Who in the group would do a deal for Kevin Martin and a pair of young bigs ? I know the Maloofs would love Allen's contract, have soured on Thompson and are ready to make Hawes available.

No recommendation here....just be interested in C's fans views on it. I know the Kings would do a deal if offered.

by **sdceltfan** Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:43 pm

Well, against the Magic, the Celtics again went back to their old tricks. ) assists in the last 7.5 minutes of the 3rd quarter. Ray Allen and Pierce with multiple turnovers, everybody but Rondo standing around. AGAIN!

The commentators have mentioned many times how the Celtics' troubles start with poor player and ball movement. Now will everyone realize that this isn't about chemistry? It's about energy and aggression, which the Celtics cannot maintain.

It's about age, yes, but even more it's about what's between the ears and in the heart. Rivers knows it. Ainge knows it. I've been pointing it out for 2 1/2 months. Someday it will be clear to the rest of our posters.

by **112288** Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:20 pm

sdceltfan wrote:Well, against the Magic, the Celtics again went back to their old tricks. ) assists in the last 7.5 minutes of the 3rd quarter. Ray Allen and Pierce with multiple turnovers, everybody but Rondo standing around. AGAIN!

The commentators have mentioned many times how the Celtics' troubles start with poor player and ball movement. Now will everyone realize that this isn't about chemistry? It's about energy and aggression, which the Celtics cannot maintain.

It's about age, yes, but even more it's about what's between the ears and in the heart. Rivers knows it. Ainge knows it. I've been pointing it out for 2 1/2 months. Someday it will be clear to the rest of our posters.

SD

This has to be a real wake-up call for Ainge! I just posted the idea that perhaps the Celtics have become uncoachable!
They went away from the whole game plan in the 3rd!

112288

by **Sam** Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:15 pm

Coming out of the half, the Celtics weren't tired. Their offense was completely ragged, and they defaulted (as they too often do) to iso offense with little help from the guy who champions it. (The bombs away mentality sometimes goes hand in hand with that.) A total turnaround from the consistent four-quarter performance of the last couple of games.

But I heard that they took only three shots during that eight-minute scoreless stretch. Coming out of the half, that's not fatigue or lack of energy—it's sucky execution (which is precisely what Doc attributed it to when given the choice of execution or energy).

The defense fell apart too; but the main reason the Magic score 36 was that they just plain had so many opportunities and took advantage of them with smart inside-out offense.

See me in April.

Sam

by **112288** Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:21 pm

Sam wrote:Coming out of the half, the Celtics weren't tired. Their offense was completely ragged, and they defaulted (as they too often do) to iso offense with little help from the guy who champions it. (The bombs away mentality sometimes goes hand in hand with that.) A total turnaround from the consistent four-quarter performance of the last couple of games.

But I heard that they took only three shots during that eight-minute scoreless stretch. Coming out of the half, that's not fatigue or lack of energy—it's sucky execution (which is precisely what Doc attributed it to when given the choice of execution or energy).

The defense fell apart too; but the main reason the Magic score 36 was that they just plain had so many opportunities and took advantage of them with smart inside-out offense.

See me in April.

Sam,

Not sure of the exact number but the C's had about 7 or 8 turnovers in that quarter alone vs. 3 in the first half!

112288

Sam

by **Sam** Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:42 pm

Lousy execution

by **steve3344** Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:36 pm

Sam wrote:Coming out of the half, the Celtics weren't tired. Their offense was completely ragged, and they defaulted (as they too often do) to iso offense with little help from the guy who champions it. (The bombs away mentality sometimes goes hand in hand with that.) A total turnaround from the consistent four-quarter performance of the last couple of games.

But I heard that they took only three shots during that eight-minute scoreless stretch. Coming out of the half, that's not fatigue or lack of energy—it's sucky execution (which is precisely what Doc attributed it to when given the choice of execution or energy).

The defense fell apart too; but the main reason the Magic score 36 was that they just plain had so many opportunities and took advantage of them with smart inside-out offense.

See me in April.

Sam

Sam,

It was actually a 5:43 scoreless stretch from the 7:16 mark to the 1:33 mark of the third quarter when Orlando turned a 9 point deficit (trailing 60-51) into a 10 point lead (70-60) with that 19-0 run. During that stretch, the Celtics attempted and missed 7 shots, not three.

5:17 - Pierce missed
5:12 - Pierce missed
4:44 - Perkins missed
4:18 - Ray missed
4:15 - Ray missed
2:56 - Rondo missed
1:53 - Ray missed

Here's the play-by-play:

http://www.nba.com/games/20100207/ORLBOS/gameinfo.html?ls=gt2hp0020900754

by **Sam** Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:58 pm

Thanks, Steve. I didn't bother to look it up...simply repeated something I heard on tv. Should have know better. Still pretty bad. I assume there must have been some turnovers in that stretch too, but I'm still too lazy to look it up.

Sam

by **sdceltfan** Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:08 am

Sam, there is a big difference between standing around and poor execution. Doc looked absolutely livid. He told the on-court reporter that the team went totally against the game plan. It was a whole lot more than poor executio, and Rivers was ANGRY.

I have said there is a whole lot more going on than chemistry and injuries. Surely you must ackmowledge that by now, Sam. Rondo insinuated as much in an interview that rankled Doc a week ago. Rondo keeps mentioning "energy" every time he is interviewed. Commentators have mentioned lack of ball and player movement. Rivers and Ainge have questioned effort.

Either this team got too old in a hurry, or they just do not care to put forth the consistent effort to be successful until the playoffs, and/or they are purposely tuning Doc out . Either way the Celtic are a disappointing lot.

Rondo is busting his *** out there. I respect and admire his effort and professionalism. His numbers would be even higher if his teammates had performed with the sense of pride and professionalism. Ray Allen has played hard consistently. If the Celtics can't or won't play with effort for 48 minutes, they had better play a whole lot smarter!

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:21 am

If someone is refusing to execte the game plan-SIT HIM!!!!!

by **112288** Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:32 am

sdceltfan wrote:Sam, there is a big difference between standing around and poor execution. Doc looked absolutely livid. He told the on-court reporter that the team went totally against the game plan. It was a whole lot more than poor executio, and Rivers was ANGRY.

I have said there is a whole lot more going on than chemistry and injuries. Surely you must ackmowledge that by now, Sam. Rondo insinuated as much in an interview that rankled Doc a week ago. Rondo keeps mentioning "energy" every time he is interviewed. Commentators have mentioned lack of ball and player movement. Rivers and Ainge have questioned effort.

Either this team got too old in a hurry, or they just do not care to put forth the consistent effort to be successful until the playoffs, and/or they are purposely tuning Doc out . Either way the Celtic are a disappointing lot.

Rondo is busting his *** out there. I respect and admire his effort and professionalism. His numbers would be even higher if his teammates had performed with the sense of pride and professionalism. Ray Allen has played hard consistently. If the Celtics can't or won't play with effort for 48 minutes, they had better play a whole lot smarter!

SD,

I was holding back on this but I'll say it now. KG seems toooooooo quiet! What I mean is 2 years ago and until he got hurt last year he was a dynamo in talking all the guys up and when necessary chewing guys out. Remember the Big baby incident where KG made him cry. During time outs, while resting on the bench and on the court he was always the gun ho, rara guy! Perhaps I've missed him doing it, but it seems that someone has put a muzzle on him. Perhaps its part of the inner turmoil! Keep your eye on this. Sam have your noticed the same thing?

112288

by **jeb** Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:38 am

1122

when something takes your health it alters you. But he is figuring out who he is now. When he learns to play with that knowledge he will still be a big force.

by **steve3344** Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:40 am

Sam wrote:Thanks, Steve. I didn't bother to look it up...simply repeated something I heard on tv. Should have know better. Still pretty bad. I assume there must have been some turnovers in that stretch too, but I'm still too lazy to look it up.

Sam

Sam,

4 turnovers in that 5:43 scoreless span: KG (2), Perk (1), Pierce (1).

by **steve3344** Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:44 am

112288 wrote:
sdceltfan wrote:Sam, there is a big difference between standing around and poor execution. Doc looked absolutely livid. He told the on-court reporter that the team went totally against the game plan. It was a whole lot more than poor executio, and Rivers was ANGRY.

I have said there is a whole lot more going on than chemistry and injuries. Surely you must ackmowledge that by now, Sam. Rondo insinuated as much in an interview that rankled Doc a week ago. Rondo keeps mentioning "energy" every time he is interviewed. Commentators have mentioned lack of ball and player movement. Rivers and Ainge have questioned effort.

Either this team got too old in a hurry, or they just do not care to put forth the consistent effort to be successful until the playoffs, and/or they are purposely tuning Doc out . Either way the Celtic are a disappointing lot.

Rondo is busting his *** out there. I respect and admire his effort and professionalism. His numbers would be even higher if his teammates had performed with the sense of pride and professionalism. Ray Allen has played hard consistently. If the Celtics can't or won't play with effort for 48 minutes, they had better play a whole lot smarter!

SD,

I was holding back on this but I'll say it now. KG seems toooooooo quiet! What I mean is 2 years ago and until he got hurt last year he was a dynamo in talking all the guys up and when necessary chewing guys out. Remember the Big baby incident where KG made him cry. During time outs, while resting on the bench and on the court he was always the gun ho, rara guy! Perhaps I've missed him doing it, but it seems that someone has put a mussel on him. Perhaps its part of the inner turmoil! Keep your eye on this. Sam have your noticed the same thing?

112288

112288,

If someone put a mussel on KG, do you think he'd prefer it boiled, steamed, fried or raw?

Good catch. It is late! 112288

by **112288** Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:44 am

jeb65 wrote:1122

when something takes your health it alters you. But he is figuring out who he is now. When he learns to play with that knowledge he will still be a big force.

Jeb,

What I mean is not his play. It was the intensity he brought to the whole team where he would push guys to walk through fire. Someone, Doc, Ainge must of said to dial it down which in my opinion has taken the edge or cocky attitude out of the team.

112288

by **jeb** Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:54 am

1122

That's exactly what i mean too...when your health scoots it humbles you and changes you a click forever.

It burns his ass to get beat by chumps like Rashad Lewis...believe me. All the guys he used to own are gunning for him now. It's straight out of a western. But those old gunslingers play dirty...

I think the team needs simply to figure out who they are NOW rather than who they were and learn to play together within those new parameters and a ton of this crap will start to iron flat.

Jeb

by **Sam** Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:22 am

112288,

Yes I have noticed that KG seems a bit subdued. But I don't believe it's because anyone ordered it. I think it's part of a larger scenario that I could be imagining, but it rings of a certain logic to me.

I believe KG realizes his best bet to be fully functional (or at least close to it) for the playoffs is to tread a difficult balance between playing and not over-stressing the knee so it still has a chance to keep healing. I know a lot of people on this board have encountered knee problems of various degrees, but I'd wager none of them has simultaneously had to endure the rigors of alternating NBA practices and an NBA game very other day-or-so. It's got to be a very difficult balance to achieve—enough to try to help the team but not enough to stress the knee. (And I'm sure the cast is another variable he has to factor into the equation.)

Because he cannot go full-steam, I believe he cannot display full intensity in his attitude because he cannot back up the intensity by going crazy on the court. He's smart enough to know (unlike many posters we encountered on BDC) that you've got to be able to walk the walk if you talk the talk.

So I think KG's attitude, just like everything else associated with the Celtics at this moment, is a work in progress. I believe that, just as their execution will improve gradually through added cohesiveness over the remainder of the season, I believe KG's physical condition will gradually improve and you'll see his attitude become more intense consistent with that improvement.

Sam

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