Re: I don't get it (Davis traded for Charlotte's DJ Augustin)

by **112288** Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:57 am

Sam wrote:Thanks guys. I should have looked more closely.

The more we hear, the more it seems that Danny could indeed wind up turning over as much as one-third of the Celtics roster. At least it seems apparent that he's out there looking at possibilities.

As I've said many times, one should not judge a player in a vacuum but within the context of the likely team chemistry if it included him.

With Augustin, I see a greatly speeded-up bench attack featuring Tony and Daniels finishing at the wings or one of them finishing and Eddie as the trailer perimeter threat. The big question in my mind would be how to compensate for the fact that opponents would be llkely to post up Augustin a lot—and with success unless there's at least one "big" to back him up.

In that respect, if Davis left, the rumors are that the Celts might trade an expiring contract for someone like 37-year-old Kurt Thomas. Would a "big" rotation of Sheed, Thomas and Williams represent adequate defensive bailouts for Augustin?

Of course, there's also the obvious fact that Augustin would constitute a more-than-adequate backup for Rondo in case of injury, foul problems, possible end-of-game anti-"hack-a-Rondo" strategy, etc.

And the Celtics may just be wondering when and if Glen will be more than worth the concerns he presents.

Interesting.

Sam

Sam, He may not be such a Defensive liability as everyone thinks. See following from Celtics Hub. 112288

As for his defense, the numbers don’t suggest he’s as much of a liability as you’d perhaps imagine given his height. Opposing point guards have put up below average numbers against him, according to 82games.com and Basketball Prospectus, and the Bobs defense is playing a touch better with him on the floor this season versus with him on the bench. (They were a touch worse with him on the floor last season). His plus/minus numbers, both raw and adjusted, are neutral.

by **NYCelt** Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:31 pm

[quote="112288Sam, He may not be such a Defensive liability as everyone thinks. See following from Celtics Hub. 112288

As for his defense, the numbers don’t suggest he’s as much of a liability as you’d perhaps imagine given his height. Opposing point guards have put up below average numbers against him, according to 82games.com and Basketball Prospectus, and the Bobs defense is playing a touch better with him on the floor this season versus with him on the bench. (They were a touch worse with him on the floor last season). His plus/minus numbers, both raw and adjusted, are neutral.[/quote]

112288,

Thanks for the info; this at least gives us a better picture of what management could be looking at.

This makes me like the proposed trade even more. For what it's worth, I don't mind giving up Davis if we still have Williams and perhaps Scal. I'm just concerned about who else we would have to part with to make the money work.

Regards

by **Jerry Tarkanian** Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:40 pm

This is from 112288's post on the other Big Baby trade thread:

Defensively, Augustin’s size is a problem because he’s too short to challenge shots effectively. It’s his major limitation as a player going forward. He needs to use his quickness to pester opponents more, and it would help if he’d pressure the ball to make opposing point guards work to get the ball up court.

Not sure two smaller points are the answer going forward.

Tark

by **Sam** Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:46 pm

Tark,

I agree that going forward with two smaller points could be risky. But there are two factors that could be mitigating.

(1) If having two smaller but quick PGs means the Celtics can begin to achieve the kind of uptempo mentality that takes better advantage of Rondo's strengths, I could be convinced. I'm not talking about a constant fast-breaking mentality (not in Pierce's basketball lifetime); but at least the notion of pushing the ball with greater consistency could potentially become more instinctive for this team as it hopefully weans itself from the "default" of iso basketball.

(2) With Tony and Eddie available to man the wings should the need present itself, Quis could be freed up for occasional service at the point against bigger PGs.

From the start of this season, I have felt that versatility would be a major factor in the Celtics' chances for success. In trading Glen Davis, they'd be losing some versatility (since he can play PF and center upon occasion). However, the kinds of resources they might be unlocking by getting a bona fide backup PG could be a more-than-acceptable tradeoff.

Sam

by **KellyGreen17** Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:49 pm

I just read a rumor on Reds Army that the Bobcats would want 'Sheed instead of Davis. Does anybody like that idea better?

by **112288** Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:54 pm

KellyGreen17 wrote:I just read a rumor on Reds Army that the Bobcats would want 'Sheed instead of Davis. Does anybody like that idea better?

WHERE DO I SIGN UP FOR THAT DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG THAT WOULD BE A BLESSING SENT FROM HEAVEN!

112288

by **KellyGreen17** Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:58 pm

I think long-term it would definitely benefit the C's, but I'm not sure that it would help win a 'ship this year. I honestly think this is nothing more than a rumor as I don't see why the Bobcats would want 'Sheed...

by **Sam** Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Kellly,

People seem pretty down on Sheed right now, so I suspect that would please a lot of them. In that case, the Celts would get an additional player, and I can't imagine it would be a big man. It would leave the Celtics with no one to play even semi-legitimate center for the bench—and very thin should KG and/or Perk become injured or get in foul trouble or be subjected to an opponent's twin tower strategy.

IF Sheed were dealt to Charlotte, I suspect it would trigger more Ainge dealing, probably for a big journeyman. Perhaps Hawes would come in a Martin deal; I've heard rumors that might include Kurt Thomas.

I find it difficult to believe that, if Danny makes one trade, it'll stop there, because additional moves will probably have to be made to shore up any position(s) left vulnerable by any trade.

At least any and all deals should be compressed within a tight time frame, which is good—because, IF they're going to be in the business of refurbishing chemistry anyway, they might as well attack all of it concurrently.

Sam

by **mrkleen09** Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:04 pm

Lets take a step back for a moment here.

Two years ago we brought in PJ Brown to play some minutes at PF down the stretch. He did a nice job stepping in – and helped out in a couple of important games. Clearly Rasheed Wallace, even with his diminished output is a much better player at this point than PJ Brown.

Last year we brought in Mikki Moore to play some minutes at PF down the stretch. He was an abject failure and didtn pull his weight. Clearly Rasheed Wallace, even with his diminished output is a much better player at this point than Mikki Moore.

So while you might not be completely satisfied with what Sheed is bringing to the table….as a back up big to spell Perk and KG – he is doing a better than adequate job, and is clearly better than any other big we could bring in at this point to fill that role.

He should NOT be included in any trade talks – unless they involve a big to fill his role on this team.

YES BUT YOU ARE STUCK WITH HIM FOR ANOTHER 2 YEARS AFTER THIS AND I SHUDDER TO THINK OF HIM NEXT YEAR AND THE NEXT.

112288

by **KellyGreen17** Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:12 pm

Sam I think you're right about a Sheed for DJ trade triggering more trades, especially if Ainge wants to be a title contender, which he's already stated he does. Of course, adding 3 or 4 new guys to the team when we are more than halfway through the season would seriously diminish our chances of winning a title this year too. I believe we need to trade some of our expiring contracts in order to plan for the future, but I also believe that adding mulitple new guys this season will make it difficult to get #18...it's sort of a rock and hard place situation.

Whatever happens I'll still be a fan...I don't know how to be anything else!

by **bobheckler** Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:13 pm

Sam wrote:Kellly,

People seem pretty down on Sheed right now, so I suspect that would please a lot of them. In that case, the Celts would get an additional player, and I can't imagine it would be a big man. It would leave the Celtics with no one to play even semi-legitimate center for the bench—and very thin should KG and/or Perk become injured or get in foul trouble or be subjected to an opponent's twin tower strategy.

IF Sheed were dealt to Charlotte, I suspect it would trigger more Ainge dealing, probably for a big journeyman. Perhaps Hawes would come in a Martin deal; I've heard rumors that might include Kurt Thomas.

I find it difficult to believe that, if Danny makes one trade, it'll stop there, because additional moves will probably have to be made to shore up any position(s) left vulnerable by any trade.

At least any and all deals should be compressed within a tight time frame, which is good—because, IF they're going to be in the business of refurbishing chemistry anyway, they might as well attack all of it concurrently.

Sam

First of all, let me say I'm loving this thread and the posts on it. Sensible ideas presented courteously, often backed up by some analysis and/or stats. No wonder I don't miss BDC.

I think that Sam's point about how short we'd be if we gave up Sheed is an excellent point. We'd need another tall player and Danny would know that.

If we're going to get a new big man or replace a starter, we better get on it now and not drag it out.

bob

by **Jerry Tarkanian** Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:34 pm

What I'm hearing is DA is likely to do at least 2, perhaps 3 moves. The initial to gain pieces to acquire a younger SG in the following moves.

Don't get too attached to anyone that might be sent from Charlotte.

Tark

by **mrkleen09** Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:34 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:Lets take a step back for a moment here.

Two years ago we brought in PJ Brown to play some minutes at PF down the stretch. He did a nice job stepping in – and helped out in a couple of important games. Clearly Rasheed Wallace, even with his diminished output is a much better player at this point than PJ Brown.

Last year we brought in Mikki Moore to play some minutes at PF down the stretch. He was an abject failure and didtn pull his weight. Clearly Rasheed Wallace, even with his diminished output is a much better player at this point than Mikki Moore.

So while you might not be completely satisfied with what Sheed is bringing to the table….as a back up big to spell Perk and KG – he is doing a better than adequate job, and is clearly better than any other big we could bring in at this point to fill that role.

YES BUT YOU ARE STUCK WITH HIM FOR ANOTHER 2 YEARS AFTER THIS AND I SHUDDER TO THINK OF HIM NEXT YEAR AND THE NEXT.

112288

He should NOT be included in any trade talks – unless they involve a big to fill his role on this team.

HOLD ON

How is it that 112288 was able to place an edit IN THE MIDDLE OF MY POST???

Sam - any ideas what is going on here?

by **Sam** Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:45 pm

Mrkleen,

112288 has been appointed an administrator. Administrators are able to edit anything.

However, an administrator should use that tool only for moderating purposes—not for personal posting purposes. I think 112288 found he could do it and so he did it. I'm sure he didn't intend anything underhanded by it. But I'm also sure he and all of us administrators will be more careful to avoid a repetition whereby we intrude on the privacy of a person's original post.

Sorry about that. I have moved the edit so it now appears as a comment AFTER your post, not within the body of your post, and (by this post), I'm requesting that he move his comment to a separate post under his own name (perhaps quoting you in the process) or simply delete it from your post.

Sam

by **gyso** Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:53 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:Lets take a step back for a moment here.

Two years ago we brought in PJ Brown to play some minutes at PF down the stretch. He did a nice job stepping in – and helped out in a couple of important games. Clearly Rasheed Wallace, even with his diminished output is a much better player at this point than PJ Brown.

Last year we brought in Mikki Moore to play some minutes at PF down the stretch. He was an abject failure and didtn pull his weight. Clearly Rasheed Wallace, even with his diminished output is a much better player at this point than Mikki Moore.

So while you might not be completely satisfied with what Sheed is bringing to the table….as a back up big to spell Perk and KG – he is doing a better than adequate job, and is clearly better than any other big we could bring in at this point to fill that role.

YES BUT YOU ARE STUCK WITH HIM FOR ANOTHER 2 YEARS AFTER THIS AND I SHUDDER TO THINK OF HIM NEXT YEAR AND THE NEXT.

112288

He should NOT be included in any trade talks – unless they involve a big to fill his role on this team.

HOLD ON

How is it that 112288 was able to place an edit IN THE MIDDLE OF MY POST???

Sam - any ideas what is going on here?

mrkleen,

112288 is a Moderator and as such has Edit abilities or rights. In our Moderator screen, the Edit button is right next to the Quote button. I have many times hit the wrong button by mistake. When that happens, we are supposed to back out of the post and then correctly press the Quote button and go on with our comment.

I've been there, done that and I don't know how many got by me on this board. This one got by 112288. That's all. It's just a mistake.

I understood what happened when I read it. I can tell what is yours and what is his, but it is confusing.

I hope this was helpfull.

gyso

by **gyso** Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:59 pm

gyso wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:Lets take a step back for a moment here.

Two years ago we brought in PJ Brown to play some minutes at PF down the stretch. He did a nice job stepping in – and helped out in a couple of important games. Clearly Rasheed Wallace, even with his diminished output is a much better player at this point than PJ Brown.

Last year we brought in Mikki Moore to play some minutes at PF down the stretch. He was an abject failure and didtn pull his weight. Clearly Rasheed Wallace, even with his diminished output is a much better player at this point than Mikki Moore.

So while you might not be completely satisfied with what Sheed is bringing to the table….as a back up big to spell Perk and KG – he is doing a better than adequate job, and is clearly better than any other big we could bring in at this point to fill that role.

YES BUT YOU ARE STUCK WITH HIM FOR ANOTHER 2 YEARS AFTER THIS AND I SHUDDER TO THINK OF HIM NEXT YEAR AND THE NEXT.

112288

He should NOT be included in any trade talks – unless they involve a big to fill his role on this team.

HOLD ON

How is it that 112288 was able to place an edit IN THE MIDDLE OF MY POST???

Sam - any ideas what is going on here?

mrkleen,

112288 is a Moderator and as such has Edit abilities or rights. In our Moderator screen, the Edit button is right next to the Quote button. I have many times hit the wrong button by mistake. When that happens, we are supposed to back out of the post and then correctly press the Quote button and go on with our comment.

I've been there, done that and I don't know how many got by me on this board. This one got by 112288. That's all. It's just a mistake.

I understood what happened when I read it. I can tell what is yours and what is his, but it is confusing.

I hope this was helpfull.

gyso

Sam,

I make this mistake weekly, probably not every day. Alot of times it is when I make the Game On! thread because I am jumping back and forth between two (or more) Explorer sessions. The two buttons are right next to each other and it is easy to do. Maybe he doesn't know it even happened.

gyso

by **dboss** Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:22 pm

Sam guess if you look at the per minute assist numbers they do not look too bad but I doubt we can find any silver lining in that 36% number.

by **Sam** Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:58 pm

Dboss,

It's true that a 36% shooting percentage is not high. It's about the same as Cousy had for his career (37.5%), and i think The Cooz was a pretty good asset. I usually evaluate a point guard based first, second and third based on his potential for ball distribution and being a good floor general. I really don't know about Augustin's credentials in those areas largely because I don't know the caliber of the players with whom he has been partnered.

Sam

by **112288** Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:23 pm

Guy's in a rush to go and snow blow while finishing a comment, I may have hit the wrong post in my comment on Sheed and skipped over on to another. If I was at fault I do send my mia culpa to the wronged party.

112288

by **dboss** Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:20 am

Sam

The Celtics could definitely use a BU PG I am only questioning the price. to me davis is one of the few energy guys that actually gets offensive rebounds for the team and as of late he has looked pretty good out there.

Rondo is going to play 36+ mpg so the BU PG will not be getting a lot of minutes. The need is there but it is a part, partime need. Davis is inherently more valuable

dboss

by **jeb** Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:01 am

Dboss. I say ship Davis if we get a legitimate back up point. Meaning a guy who can handle and distribute the ball. Extra bonus if he can shoot.

I think there is a very good reason the guy is named big baby. Maybe i am engaged in some stinking thinking here but our slide into book of Job bad luck began with his drunken decision to punch his buddy. That cost us and I mean big. Glen meet consequences, consequences meet Glen.

I am in the camp that thinks a back up point guard is a major need.

In regards to sheed. If we could get an athletic big back who is young could rebound in traffic and would listen to anyone at all I am for it. I love sheed against Cleve and specialy the Lakers but he cant cut it against the quicker teams. (i'd throw Orlando in there too sheed will help there.)

Anyway I bet Danny is going to do something where there is this much smoke...

by **mrkleen09** Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:02 pm

112288 wrote:Guy's in a rush to go and snow blow while finishing a comment, I may have hit the wrong post in my comment on Sheed and skipped over on to another. If I was at fault I do send my mia culpa to the wronged party.

112288

no worries....just didn't like the president set by being able to edit in the MIDDLE of someone else's post. Thanks for the clarification.

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