Re: 2016 Playoff Thread

by **Outside** Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:18 pm

West was 1-8 in finals. LeBron is 2-4, on his way to 2-5.

What West is saying is that criticizing a great player for a poor finals record is unjustified if that player steps up to play well in the finals but just can't win because the opponent is a better team. West drew a comparison between himself and LeBron in that regard.

I agree with West that LeBron's finals record isn't a valid reason for criticizing him. There is no way that the Cavs were going to beat the Spurs in 2007, the Spurs in 2014, the Warriors last year, or the Warriors this year. The only year that LeBron can be justifiably criticized for a finals loss is 2011 against Dallas, when LeBron did his fourth quarter disappearing act, but that was the first year the LeBron-Wade-Bosh Heat team was together, and they followed that up with two titles.

The current criticism of LeBron's finals record is based on how it compares to Jordan's 6-0 record, as if that proves a truly great player can win a finals by force of will. But that's just false. The better team wins, and great players aren't always on the best team.

I agree with West that LeBron is undeniably a great player, and I agree that LeBron shouldn't be criticized because of his finals record, but I don't agree with the implication that West makes that LeBron is above criticism. As I wrote after last year's finals, LeBron believes that the way to ultimate team performance is through the power of his individual talent surrounded by players to complement his performance. He believes his teammates need to get him the ball and then be ready to make shots after receiving the passes he sets up through his individual play. The team is always built around his performance.

But the Spurs in 2014 and the Warriors the past two years have shown that a great collection of players who willingly submit themselves to team play and a system based on distributed opportunity is far superior to a team based on a centralized individual talent. Part of Curry's greatness is his willingness to be coached, to be subsumed within the team and the system, to draw the focus of the defense and let his team succeed and other players reap the rewards that the attention on him provides. LeBron is a great player, but his desire for control and his belief in the power of his individual play would not allow him to play in that type of system.

We can pick at other nits about LeBron -- flopping, poor outside shooting, bowling over anyone on his way to the basket, and so on -- but to me, his belief in himself over a true team is what he can be justifiably criticized for.

by **Outside** Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:21 pm

Six Ways The Cavs Can Get Back Into This Series

Oh man, that is cold. But facts are facts, and the Cavs are facing a cold, hard truth.

by **dbrown4** Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:29 pm

BobH,

What I'm getting at is West was 1 and something in Finals play as a player, with a larger number in the loss column. (Compared to Jordan, 6-0. Russell 9-0?) James is getting that way as well. Chamberlain, the same. Not bad company but if it sounds like a comment made out of bitterness because of the circumstances, it's difficult not to acknowledge it as such. It sounds like Jerry's comments are coming from common ground. As history showed, Jerry got his Mr Logo, 7 championships as an exec, that was where his strengths were going to bring him multiple championships, but I can guarantee you he feels he deserved more player championships than he got. He's thankful because it paved the way for his career and accolades afterward, but I just see more beneath the surface with his comments about LeBron, that's all.

He's right. LeBron deserves that respect. He's earned that respect. But this league is and will always be about winning championships. Jerry came from that era where that mentality began in very brutal fashion. As a player, he was on the short end of stick. We were on the winning end of it. I believe there is some bitterness he has with only winning 1 championship regardless of the exec championships. It will never go away as a player. Celtics and Celtic fans are at the top of that driving mentality as we have said many times, it's championship or bust year in and year out. It's a very brash extreme view of the sport, but it is what it is. 95%+ of players coming through the NBA will never experience a championship. So you better really love the game and playing 82 games a year because that is what you are going to get. We've been spoiled with great success. We are always going to continue to demand the very best because we know what we know.

db

by **RosalieTCeltics** Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:51 pm

Unfortunately, in this day and age, things are judged by what you have done, not how good you were. West was a great, great basketball player. His defense of James rings of what he felt about himself. His misfortune was that he always came up against the greatest basketball player of his time, Bill Russell. There was no way Russ wanted to lost to the Lakers so when push came to shove, he showed up and made sure the Celtics came out on the winning side, even when they were not supposed to win. Eleven championships in Thirteen years is one hell of a record.

James is a phenomenal ballplayer (though it kills me to say this as personally I dislike his style). My feeling is he will never win the amount of championships as he desires. I could be wrong, but......
It just does not seem like this will happen unless he gets his wish and forms a team with Melo, Paul, and whoever else he so desires! Wishful thinking will get him no where.

I would defend West for his comments but, I was around rooting for the Celtics to whip his butt during every one of those playoff games that he lost to the Celtics. Sorry, it is what it is, as my 96 year old Mother would say (and she was a gigantic Jerry West fan!!!)

Rosalie

by **Outside** Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:13 pm

dbrown4 wrote:Compared to Jordan, 6-0. Russell 9-0?

Russell was 11-1. Boston lost to St. Louis in the finals in his second season. The only time Russell didn't make the finals was in 1967, when Wilt's Sixers beat the Celtics in the conference finals. Remarkable.

by **swish** Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:59 pm

I thought the ring was a team award but for many it is used to single out players and give them the nod over others with a lower ring count. Do they take into account the supporting cast on those championship teams? It doesn't appear that comparative roster strength is ever evaluated. For example: From 1959-60 through 1964-65 the Celtics won 6 championships. During each of those 6 years the team posted winning percentages ranging from .722 to .787. During those same years Wilt was playing on teams whose winning percentages ranged from .213 to .653. Surprise, Surprise - Russ 6 rings - Wilt 0 rings. Later I'll post the Hall of Fame players on each roster for each team.

swish

by **RosalieTCeltics** Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:20 pm

Russell always game his teammates credit for helping to win the titles that they won. He never took the glory all for himself, knowing that it takes more than one man to win a title. So it is more the press and fans that give the credit to one person.

by **swish** Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:49 pm

Hall of famers playing with Russ and Wilt.
In addition to Russ : 1959-60 - 6 HOF'ers, 60-61- 6, 61-62 - 5, 62-63 - 7, 63-64 - 6, 64-65 - 4. Plus hof coach Auerbach all 6 years.

In addition to Wilt : 1959-60 - 3, 60-61 - 3, 61-62 - 3, 62-63 - 2, 63-64 - 2, 64-65 - ( split season between San Francisco - 2 and Philly - 1.

Swish

by **swish** Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:57 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Russell always game his teammates credit for helping to win the titles that they won. He never took the glory all for himself, knowing that it takes more than one man to win a title. So it is more the press and fans that give the credit to one person.

"So it is more the press and fans that give the credit to one person. [/quote]"

RosalieT

I agree 100% with your above statement. I think fan bias enters into the picture and as a result you can get some pretty slanted opinions when making player comparisons.

swish

by **dbrown4** Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:04 pm

OK. Just for fun, there are four possible outcomes in tonight's Game 3.

GSW wins in a rout
GSW wins close (< 7 points)
CLE wins close ( <7 points)
CLE wins in a rout

I'm going to have to go with GSW winning in a rout. They can show absolutely, positively no mercy. Who else wants to go on record?!

db

by **RosalieTCeltics** Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:50 pm

I, too, will go with GSW, Not quite sure they will give them the a....kicking they did Sunday, but, without Love again, Clevelands game plan is confused. I just want to see the look on LBJ face if they lose again. He will be ticked off to say the least.

I will say, he will try to take the game over if he is getting no help from Irving and crew. There is no way he will lose again by 30

by **dbrown4** Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:27 pm

Rosalie,

I don't think he will be angry/ticked off. He's passed all that. He will begin to look resigned, though. So Love is out? I hadn't heard that yet. (OK, just checked ESPN. My bad!)

The league and GSW in particular has figured out the Iso-LeBron routine. If they see it again tonight, it could be a point differential up in the 40's.

db

by **RosalieTCeltics** Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:49 pm

Just think, Curry or Thompson has really yet to "go off" and score a ton of points. The bench is supporting them so fantastically. I watch Barbosa and remember how much I liked him for the short time he was in Boston. Livingston is such a good bench player and Andre I is right there guarding LeBron so well. Channing Frye has yet to make a difference in this series, yet he was instrumental in their wins to get here.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:48 pm

Well, it looks like I underestimated Cleveland. I did not see this beating coming. Time for GSW to come down off that cloud they have been on.

by **Sloopjohnb** Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:58 pm

Interesting that Jerry West's one for eight in the finals did not garner the criticism that Lebron's 2 for 5 and counting has.

If I recall correctly, the media in West's day always expressed sympathy for a guy with such a squeaky clean All-American image meeting with such futility in the finals. The media and the NBA publicity machine --such as it was at the time-- absolutely adored West. Hell, not only did he become "The Logo" but he actually was voted MVP of the 1969 finals which of course was won by Russell's Celtics. The first and only time a player from the losing side has been so honored.

Hey, even Johnny Most called West "Gentleman Jerry." I can't seem to recall Johnny calling Magic Johnson "Magnificent Magic."

I once browsed Jerry West's autobiography and was a little surprised about how frankly he recounted events that punctured his squeaky clean image--his cheating on his wife with groupies, how he retired in a huff because the Lakers lowballed him on a new contract in the days of the reserve clause (today some team would have given him a King's ransom), how he grew up in a dysfunctional household with an abusive alcoholic father under the pall cast by the death of his older brother in the Korean War, how he slept with a shotgun by his bed in case dad decided to give him a beating while in an alcohol infused rage. I guess sanitized bios don't sell these days.

I absolutely agree with West that criticizing Lebron for winning "only" two titles in five trips to the finals is unfair. I bet dollar for donuts that Lebron's peers do not look upon this as some sign of failure. But the public perception of Lebron James is a lot closer to that of Wilt Chamberlan's than Jerry West's.

by **steve3344** Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:00 pm

Sloopjohnb wrote:Interesting that Jerry West's one for eight in the finals did not garner the criticism that Lebron's 2 for 5 and counting has.

If I recall correctly, the media in West's day always expressed sympathy for a guy with such a squeaky clean All-American image meeting with such futility in the finals. The media and the NBA publicity machine --such as it was at the time-- absolutely adored West. Hell, not only did he become "The Logo" but he actually was voted MVP of the 1969 finals which of course was won by Russell's Celtics. The first and only time a player from the losing side has been so honored.

Hey, even Johnny Most called West "Gentleman Jerry." I can't seem to recall Johnny calling Magic Johnson "Magnificent Magic."

I once browsed Jerry West's autobiography and was a little surprised about how frankly he recounted events that punctured his squeaky clean image--his cheating on his wife with groupies, how he retired in a huff because the Lakers lowballed him on a new contract in the days of the reserve clause (today some team would have given him a King's ransom), how he grew up in a dysfunctional household with an abusive alcoholic father under the pall cast by the death of his older brother in the Korean War, how he slept with a shotgun by his bed in case dad decided to give him a beating while in an alcohol infused rage. I guess sanitized bios don't sell these days.

I absolutely agree with West that criticizing Lebron for winning "only" two titles in five trips to the finals is unfair. I bet dollar for donuts that Lebron's peers do not look upon this as some sign of failure. But the public perception of Lebron James is a lot closer to that of Wilt Chamberlan's than Jerry West's.

Lebron is 2 for 6 and counting, not 2 for 5.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:09 pm

It all comes down to two things. The day and age we are in, and the personality of the player. Jerry West was a well loved basketball player for most everyone who followed basketball back then. He was with the same team, never made noises and complain, and just did whatever he could to try to win. A well liked guy.
On the other hand, in this age of Money being the God, and everyone always trying to beat some player''s record, it has become easier to dislike LeBron. The '"DECISION" debacle is one perfect example. It was like he was rubbing salt in the would of the Cleveland fans, then his "I'M COMING HOME" press conference, made it even worse.

As good (great) as he is, there is a lack of respect there for LeBron which did not exist for West That is just the way I view this, one person's opinion.

(BESIDE'S WHICH, HE IS A DRAMA QUEEN!!!!)

by **Sloopjohnb** Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:15 pm

I forgot about the 4-0 wipeout to the Spurs, perhaps the dullest finals I've ever seen although the Bullets going out 4-0 to Alcindor's and Robertson's Bucks in '71 could give it a good run.

by **swish** Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:02 pm

Sloopjohnb wrote:Interesting that Jerry West's one for eight in the finals did not garner the criticism that Lebron's 2 for 5 and counting has.

If I recall correctly, the media in West's day always expressed sympathy for a guy with such a squeaky clean All-American image meeting with such futility in the finals. The media and the NBA publicity machine --such as it was at the time-- absolutely adored West. Hell, not only did he become "The Logo" but he actually was voted MVP of the 1969 finals which of course was won by Russell's Celtics. The first and only time a player from the losing side has been so honored.

Hey, even Johnny Most called West "Gentleman Jerry." I can't seem to recall Johnny calling Magic Johnson "Magnificent Magic."

I once browsed Jerry West's autobiography and was a little surprised about how frankly he recounted events that punctured his squeaky clean image--his cheating on his wife with groupies, how he retired in a huff because the Lakers lowballed him on a new contract in the days of the reserve clause (today some team would have given him a King's ransom), how he grew up in a dysfunctional household with an abusive alcoholic father under the pall cast by the death of his older brother in the Korean War, how he slept with a shotgun by his bed in case dad decided to give him a beating while in an alcohol infused rage. I guess sanitized bios don't sell these days.

I absolutely agree with West that criticizing Lebron for winning "only" two titles in five trips to the finals is unfair. I bet dollar for donuts that Lebron's peers do not look upon this as some sign of failure. But the public perception of Lebron James is a lot closer to that of Wilt Chamberlan's than Jerry West's.

Sloop,

"absolutely agree with West that criticizing Lebron for winning "only" two titles in five trips to the finals is unfair. I bet dollar for donuts that Lebron's peers do not look upon this as some sign of failure. But the public perception of Lebron James is a lot closer to that of Wilt Chamberlan's than Jerry West's."

I have to agree with you on your above statement

Judging players off ring count is, in my opinion, a weak argument used to enhance a players reputation.
Celtic Jim Luscutoff picked up 7 rings while playing with Russ back in the late 50's and early 60's. Take a look at his numbers and see how he stacked up against West.

swish

by **worcester** Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:19 pm

Well I guess Kevin Love is out of the running now for NBA Finals MVP. AS I've long said, Cleveland should have kept the Wiggins pick.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:39 am

I hope DA thinks twice about going after Love. There is just something about that kid that is not appealing to me, I could be wrong. I had read on a Celtic website that they probably would want Jae Crowder AND Avery
Bradley, plus the #3 pick. Stupid deal that would be. He is not worth that.. There are many teams that will want to include one or both of those players in a deal. I personally would not like giving up Crowder, I am a little unsure about Bradley. His defense is great, but offense disappears sometimes for games on end, Then when he finds it, he is terrific. He needs to work on that part of his game.

Oh well, we can say what we want but Danny will do what Danny thinks is right for the team. Not much longer to wait for the draft and the stuff starts hitting the fan.

by **dbrown4** Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:53 pm

OK. Changing my stripes yet again. Looking at 2-2 and a Father's Day Game 7.

db

by **RosalieTCeltics** Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:51 pm

Still holding out for 5 games. I know, wishful thinking. If GSW wins tonight, it is over.

by **bobc33** Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:12 pm

Tie game early in the fourth. Verajao with some huge effort late in the third.

LeBron whining a ton, though nothing new here.

Should be a heck of a fourth!

by **RosalieTCeltics** Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:27 pm

Curry finally having a great game, if Thompson ever turns it on they will kill them in game 5. 9 point lead with 5 and a half to go.

James looks very tentative. Thompson just had a huge block and then a air ball three point. Inguodala looking awesome, just took a shot in the chops and came up limping. Just get this game over with!!!!!!!!!

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