Patriots owner Robert Kraft charged with solicitation of prostitution

Thank you Shamrock for those points. This is a mess for sure. I'm not sure these guys in their age range know any differently. Those attitudes were the ones they grew up around and I'm not really sure you can blame them. Have you ever tried to convince anyone over the age of 70 that what they are saying or doing is wrong?! Good luck. You can throw them in jail or force them to sell their team or publicly humiliate them but you will never convince them they are wrong. That's all they know.

Attitudes and behaviors change over decades and centuries and millennia. This generation of 70-80+ers will hold onto all their beliefs regardless of the consequences. They may not verbalize them in public anymore or become closet racists, or purchase sex more discretely or whatever but they will not get rid of any of these beliefs. Newton was right, for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In this case and generation, it's called Wack-A-Mole.

Each generation it hopefully gets a little less and less until things like this are eradicated but there's been 5,000+ years of recorded history and not a lot has changed or will not be forgotten or allowed to be forgotten anytime soon. Man has had a couple of "drivers" over the ages that have never changed. A sense of power/survival/wanting to be on top (no pun intended) and an unquenchable sex drive, i.e. be fruitful and multiply. I'd like to be on the bandwagon that one day there will be no racism or prostitution or sex crimes/sex trafficking which these scenarios spell out, but it is futile as long as man has at least these two overwhelming driving forces.

It is unfortunate that Mr. Kraft had this blow up in his face. It was an unfortunate sequence of events that brought him to the point that he felt, probably uncontrollably, that he had to result to this...that there was no other option. It is most unfortunate that he had his brilliant mind tripped up by the oldest trick (pun intended) in the book. It happens to the best of them.

db

P.S. Board, I've probably stepped over a line here so feel free to edit as you see fit. I've tried to keep it in the context of the discussion but I always submit to your discretion and the good-natured welfare and conviviality of the current Board as envisioned by Sam.

worcester,

My mom is 82 years old, has diabetes and dementia, and I can't convince her of anything regarding changing her mind about anything!  Tough nut to crack!  She'll say "I'm 82 years old and I can have sugar if I want it, when I want it!" Resistance is futile, Dave. (P.S. Name that movie and director)

db

dbrown4 wrote:Thank you Shamrock for those points.  This is a mess for sure.  I'm not sure these guys in their age range know any differently.  Those attitudes were the ones they grew up around and I'm not really sure you can blame them.  Have you ever tried to convince anyone over the age of 70 that what they are saying or doing is wrong?!  Good luck.  You can throw them in jail or force them to sell their team or publicly humiliate them but you will never convince them they are wrong.  That's all they know.        

Attitudes and behaviors change over decades and centuries and millennia.  This generation of 70-80+ers will hold onto all their beliefs regardless of the consequences.  They may not verbalize them in public anymore or become closet racists, or purchase sex more discretely or whatever but they will not get rid of any of these beliefs.  Newton was right, for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  In this case and generation, it's called Wack-A-Mole.  

Each generation it hopefully gets a little less and less until things like this are eradicated but there's been 5,000+ years of recorded history and not a lot has changed or will not be forgotten or allowed to be forgotten anytime soon.  Man has had a couple of "drivers" over the ages that have never changed.  A sense of power/survival/wanting to be on top (no pun intended) and an unquenchable sex drive, i.e. be fruitful and multiply.  I'd like to be on the bandwagon that one day there will be no racism or prostitution or sex crimes/sex trafficking which these scenarios spell out, but it is futile as long as man has at least these two overwhelming driving forces.  

It is unfortunate that Mr. Kraft had this blow up in his face.  It was an unfortunate sequence of events that brought him to the point that he felt, probably uncontrollably, that he had to result to this...that there was no other option.  It is most unfortunate that he had his brilliant mind tripped up by the oldest trick (pun intended) in the book.  It happens to the best of them.          

db

P.S.  Board, I've probably stepped over a line here so feel free to edit as you see fit.  I've tried to keep it in the context of the discussion but I always submit to your discretion and the good-natured welfare and conviviality of the current Board as envisioned by Sam.  

Thoughtful post - enjoyed reading it.

Shamrock,

I also have another weapon.  My wife is a public high school math teacher.  She has to be ready to argue anything on the fly at a moments notice!  We have conversations like these all the time and one of her many positive traits is being a sounding board or a filter for all my zany ideas or great ideas.  A lot of my ideas never make it off the editing room floor!  Thank you for your posts.

db

dbrown4 wrote:worcester,

My mom is 82 years old, has diabetes and dementia, and I can't convince her of anything regarding changing her mind about anything!  Tough nut to crack!  She'll say "I'm 82 years old and I can have sugar if I want it, when I want it!"  Resistance is futile, Dave. (P.S.  Name that movie and director)

db

I'll probably get this wrong...

2001 a Space Odyssey?

Director, damn, I don't know...Stanley Kubrick?

Nice NYCelt! I think the name of the computer was HAL, right?

db

dbrown4 wrote:112288,

All I'm asking is how is this any different in this PC world we live in than dropping the n-bomb/making (in this particular case non-public) racially insensitive statements or fraternizing with the help in the public's eye?  The previous owners of the LA Clippers and Carolina Panthers are waiting for an answer.  

You don't think all the NEP haters are going to let this go any more than those that forced the ouster of the two above?  I'm not seeing it.

I agree on the daughters, though.  My wife has 3 when my original family had all boys.  Complete change in perspective.  Their real dad is for all intense and purposes non-existent (their words not mine).  It has taken me and them 6 years to drop the step dad/step daughter monikers and I love it!  They feel the same way as well.  I am their dad and they are my daughters.  First time marriages don't get to experience this fine little nuance of second marriages with children.

God made it quite clear to me that now all those single track thoughts I had as a teenager toward girls my age at that time are being had by the boys surrounding them in high school today.  I didn't take to kindly to that lesson learned!  But it will definitely change your perspective!

db

Dropping the N bomb and the origin of such was/is meant to degrade and dehumanize. I believe illegally buying some booty is on a much different plain.

The thing about this story is, for Bob Kraft, a humiliating incident. Here is a man who takes several different players/acquaintances/others on trips to Israel on a yearly basis. There are so many people who look up to him. He has changed many lives over the years. To be involved in this situation, is just a stupid error in judgement on his part. A man of his means can afford any woman he wants, in a secluded surrounding. They have photos of him inside this parlor.

There will be jokes, snide remarks, insinuations. This man is too good a man to be going thru this at his age. As my Mom would have said, HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.

NYCelt....this too shall pass, you are right. But his reputation has been damaged, A sad and sick situation.

worcester wrote:Dbrown. Arthur C. Clarke was both the author of 2001 and satellite telecommunications. He was a good friend of my dive buddy Carl Fismer.

He is also the author of the quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".


bob


.

Truly fascinating, worcester! Thanks for sharing that!

db

112288 wrote:This is so stupid.  A 76 year old who is wandering around life trying to get some shallow enjoyment after his wife died, by first hooking up with a 36 year old and perhaps fathering a child and now this!

Brilliant businessman who is lost in life.  And NO he cannot be forced to sell the team.   It is a joke of a charge and will be plea bargained  downed to a fine at most.  The passing of money could be argued that it was a tip for an act of love and not payment for services rendered.

BTW I hope the comment was a joke and not meant to be real about legalized prostitution.  For those who have daughters, statements like that are very sensitive and should not be taken lightly.  I have twin daughters!
Prostitution is an evil vice and a disrespect of ones own body and soul!

112288

IMO what happens behind closed doors between consenting adults (and this does NOT include people held against their will or forced in any way to participate) is solely between those adults. It is not my business or anyone else's business to judge them. Too often in this society we tend to impose our moral values on other people. As long as the behavior of an individual does not negatively impact other people then the "holier than thou" rush to judgment seems a bit out of line to me. I assume that Kraft knew nothing of the sex ring, where women were allegedly held against their will. I will give him the benefit of that doubt. And assuming that is true, I see nothing wrong with what he did (other than being stupid). Let him pay his fine and move on.

dbrown4 wrote:Nice NYCelt!  I think the name of the computer was HAL, right?  

db

Yes, HAL as I recall.

But was I right or wrong on the director?

NYCelt wrote:

dbrown4 wrote:Nice NYCelt!  I think the name of the computer was HAL, right?  

db

Yes, HAL as I recall.

But was I right or wrong on the director?

Yes, Kubrick directed the movie.

Shamrock1000 wrote:

NYCelt wrote:

dbrown4 wrote:Nice NYCelt!  I think the name of the computer was HAL, right?  

db

Yes, HAL as I recall.

But was I right or wrong on the director?

Yes, Kubrick directed the movie.

Lucky guess on my part there.

Kubrick also made my favorite of his, The Shining with Jack Nicholson.

Pumsie,

I wish it were that simple. Clips owner thought he was having a private conversation. Instead it was recorded and went public and in the end he was forced to sell his team. Kraft was having what he thought was a private encounter between him and another person. This went public as well. Granted you may and most (probably all )of us agree that what happens behind closed doors is no one's business.

But there are ones who believe everything should be public knowledge. Or at least everything that is private that if taken public would be found offensive. And that's ok as long as the lights are not (or are never) shining on you or me.

I agree it is a grey area (not necessarily fair) to apply this generation's (in time) beliefs on an older generation who's beliefs are diametrically opposed (or offensive) to each other and not likely to be changed under any circumstances.

No one gave the Clips owner the benefit of the doubt...'Ah come on, he's an old guy who's near death, he's not going to hurt anyone. He's old and says crazy shit. Punishing him isn't going to change his mind or beliefs. Let him keep his team. Slap him on the wrist, tell him to keep the racial comments to himself. He's just out of his mind.'

As for Kraft's situation, I'm just not seeing much of a difference in the premises so I'm not expecting much of a different result than what the Clipper's and Panther's owners had to experience. Time will tell. I hope he sees a different result.

db

I cringe when we get borderline political on this board and allow politics to creep into the conversation but since it has happened please allow me to vent a bit.
There is no comparison between what Kraft has allegedly done and what Donald Sterling did.
If we are going to compare lets include at least some of the facts.
Sterling was an out and out Racist. He not only said things that he thought was private but he also practiced his racist policies in his private business as well as the team business.
He treated his black players like possessed ornaments. Here’s a quote that Sterling thought was OK when he’d bring visitors into the locker room “Look at all those beautiful Black bodies”.
And in the so-called “private” conversation he told his girl that he didn’t want Black people to attend his games. “Don’t bring Black people to my games”.
Fact: My high school coach was interviewed by Sterling for a coaching job. They met at the airport and one of the first questions he asked the coach was “How do you control your n_____”.
The coach ended the convedrstation and got back on the plane and went back home.
Donald Sterlings words don’t fall under the PC category. They’re offensive, hurtful and degrading. His Racist practices kept folks from renting affordable housing and those type practices were also used when managing his team.
Adam Silver did the right thing. Slapping him on the hand and allowing him to continue his bigoted behavior is not Ok.
I could go on but most of what Sterling has said, done and not done is of public record.
Personally, others than being very wealthy, I don’t think there is any comparison to him and Robert Kraft not even remotely.
Now....about tonight’s game....

Well, there IS no game tonight, but there is a litmus test game tomorrow. Frankly, I do not think that this team has the capacity to get the chemistry together to make a good playoff run this year. Certainly the talent is there. I think that there is enough talent to make the finals ( no one is going to beat the Warriors, unfortunately)-and that is what makes watching this season unfold so distasteful. Its a waste of a whole year of being competitive. I heard that they are over the luxury tax limit. How long will ownership and upper management put up with losing to horrible teams all the while spending as if this team is competitive? I can see some major changes happening once the season is over.

Ktronic1,

Our illustrious leader Sam had a way of writing that was like no one I have ever seen nor probably will ever see. BobH on this site comes the closest. Both are eloquent but Sam had a way of quickly responding to every post with style and grace. His posts were longer than what most would consider normal in this 140 character world we live in, but there was never a boring or superfluous word he wrote. He was captivating to say the very least. I think of him just about every time I post. I am no Sam. So bear with me, please.

No doubt Mr. Sterling's words are offensive. But you are proving at least one of my points in this thread. He's not going to get it. His words are not offensive to him. You also, using terms like 'his Racist practices' and 'Donald Sterling's word....They're offensive, hurtful and degrading" such that if these words ever got back to Mr. Sterling and said to him he would turn on you and say the same back to you. You would be speaking to a brick wall. It is clear from what you have stated above that he does this repeatedly. He doesn't know the difference....yet.

I reviewed this whole thread and nothing had been said up until your post about this approaching politics. Now racism is a topic that has a lot of traction in the political arena because of the number of ears readily available to chime in and it is typically used to silence conversation these days, but discussing it here at least in this thread is not political nor meant to be political. It only becomes political when one starts taking sides and imposes that view on the accused and tries to supplant or marginalize any point of view for that matter, no matter how offensive. One can't do that. One can't have their cake and eat it too.

On this site, Sam clearly states we can only voice our views in the arena of conviviality from the Latin meaning "with life" or "fit for a feast". Suppression is not convivial.

I personally believe Adam Silver missed a great opportunity to mend a racial fence here and lead the way in race relations with the Clippers owner. He chose exile over repairing a bridge that had been blown up. I'm curious if Mr. Silver sat down with him as a last resort and said something to the effect of, "Mr. Sterling, we have a problem. I need you to do the following. For the Clippers, the NBA, this country and the world. It is a huge opportunity for you. Your beliefs and language regarding African Americans are offensive to many in this league, country and world. They have hurt and will continue to hurt many people. I know you are a man of power and wealth and that you grew up in a different era. Times have changed. I want you to do something that will be extremely difficult for you at first but it will be a lot easier for you in the long run than my first choice which really isn't a choice and that is to sell your team effective immediately. But I want you to do this for me and for this league that has given you a good part of your wealth and livelihood.

First I want you to personally and sincerely apologize to every player on the team and everyone in your organization and ask for their forgiveness. This may take the rest of your life. It will be extremely difficult for you at first but after about the 10th time or so you are going to get what I'm getting at. You are going to shed more unforced tears than you ever have in your life if you do this the right way. But you know what? They are going to forgive you. And the burden your words and actions will begin to be lifted off your shoulders and also off of those you offended. Some will forgive you right off the bat, others maybe a little later, some may take much longer but I want you to walk in each of their shoes. The ones that don't forgive you right off the bat, walk a little further with them. Hear their story."

Something to that effect. I believe you would have a totally different result. A true movement for race relations if you will. In my opinion, Adam Silver chose to cut bait and marginalize, not to deal with the real issues which are education and forgiveness. Now if DS still was running off at the mouth after AS delivered something like the above, then Option A is all that is left. I believe DS would have chosen Option B after some careful thought and prayer.

I honestly believe DS is still who he is. Now he can't even apologize to those he offended with his ban from the NBA. Selling his team? That doesn't effect him. He still gets the money. He just swapped the team for cash. His balance sheet didn't change. This "punishment" did nothing to change behavior. Of him or anyone else for that matter. Asking for forgiveness and receiving forgiveness? That changes people. That changes behavior.

That's enough. I did see on Highly Questionable recently (which btw is the greatest show ever! It is a show on ESPN about the great love and respect between a father and his son and the great time they have together every day of their lives) that one of questions debated was should Robert Kraft begin turning over daily operations to his son...because of all this. Now while this isn't what I said would happen, it's clearly in the ballpark and it's just the first swing by the media and public opinion. Again, I hope I am wrong but here it comes just like clockwork.

db