Re: The Official LeBron thread

[tjmakz]

If LeBron leaves Cleveland, I think it will ring the death knell for smaller market franchises. I mean, how will a Cleveland/Portland/Sacramento sized markets attract enough talent to be truly competitive for the championship?

What we're seeing here is the lesson learned by the players from the success of the "Boston experiment". We brought 3 players together to create instant championship. They are now trying to re-create that in another city.

The longterm effect on the league however, if it works a second time, will be seen in the years to come.

bob

.

bob,

The small market teams rebuild their franchises throught the draft. Sacramento has a lot of young talent and will probably get another top 10 draft pick this year.
Look at what Seattle/OKC did through the draft. They are a very good young team.
Small market teams will be fine after a couple of years of rebuilding.
LeBron is not required to be the savior of Cleveland his whole career.

[tjmakz]

BTW, what's the deal with MSG and the mystique there? I understand the Willis Reed moment and the two championships won there decades ago along with the boxing events that took place there in the 70's, but why does that place get so much hype? Is that it? Give me a break!

And another thinkg that ticks me off...with all this hype in the NBA about who is the best of all time, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, blah, blah, blah, how come no one ever mentions the 11 rings Bill Russell won as being so far out there in first place that no one will ever come near it as a player?

MSG has a billion+ dollar TV Network in the NY/NJ/CT region. It's not the arena but the TV revenue.

I have no idea how great Bill Russell was but having the most rings doesn't mean he was the best player.

[Sam]

dbrown,

Of course there's widespread hatred of the Celtics. It began in the sixties, and I believe it's now an inherited birthright that has been passed down to many generations that have followed. Red was a major part of the reason because of his brashness. Envy was also an important factor, and it appears that the passage of time, and even the accumulation of more titles, will never eradicate the bitterness of so many Celtics detractors.

Red had the same feeling about the nationwide hatred of the Celtics that he had about the many empty seats during the Russell Years. When I asked him about both of those phenomena in 1969, he said, "It's simple. We win too much."

But I think Red's response has been proven to have barely scraped the surface. Even though the Celtics certainly didn't "win too much" between the Bird and Garnett eras, the legacy has (if anything) grown; and the antipathy seems to have intensified as the technological means of spreading the vitriol have proliferated.

Over the years, I've spend a lot of time wondering how to put into words the process by which the Celtics mystique has continued to inflate the pride of Celtics fans and tortures Celtics detractors. It obviously goes well beyond such trivialities as won-lost records, appearances in the finals, a 16-5 finals winning percentage, a 9-3 finals record against their most consistent adversaries, and even an unparalleled number of championships won.

Finally, during the past couple of weeks (even during the summer league games), I've heard several repetitions of a phrase that I've heard many times in the past. "The Boston Celtics are the most storied franchise in NBA history." Perhaps that's as good an explanation as any.

By decimating all comers for so many years from the mid-fifties through the mid-seventies; by doing so with the irascible Auerbach at the helm; by dint of incredible dominating consistency; by winning against all odds upon occasion, the Celtics fashioned a legacy that will never be matched. The mystique has even coined popular terms reserved uniquely for the Celtics, such as "Celtic Pride."

Transcending all the envy and hatred, that legacy continues to inspire supporters, haunt detractors, and spark the imaginations of all basketball fans. Nothing that has happened since in basketball (including the Celtics' wins of the 80s and since) even remotely approaches the majesty of those years. The Boston Celtics retired the trophy for tradition and mystique long ago. Detractors keep resorting to stats in vain efforts to supplant something that long ago achieved the stature of a way of life. Those citations are like a pellet gun "strafing" The Bismarck.

Legacies are often products of the past, because the present is always fleeting. The United States is in a hell of a mess. The economy is in the dumper. People can't find jobs. The quality of our educational system is well down on the list of nations. Hell, we can't even win a war any longer. Yet, if all the people in the world were polled as to which is the greatest country in the world, despite all the rancor that exists internally and abroad, I'd wager the winner would be the United States of America. Its legacy is a function more of the past than the present, but it is still pervasive.

One does not have to live in the past in order to be appreciative of, or inspired by, or even envious of an ongoing legacy. I'd guess that the great majority of those friends and foes who are now affected (pro or con) by the Celtics legacy were not alive when the legacy was established. They are not humanly capable of living in a past they did not inhabit. Yet, whether willingly or reluctantly, they recognize the legacy as an important living entity.

In saying these things, I'm not trying to denigrate other teams or fans of those teams...simply attempting to answer another poster by explaining a phenomenon I've lived through rather intimately. The Boston Celtics are simply the most storied NBA franchise in history; and I don't see that changing any time soon. And an all-too-deemphasized fact is that they couldn't possibly have achieved their fabled status had it not been for the valiant, historic, persistent accomplishments of their highly respected opponents.

Sam

[bobheckler]

If LeBron leaves Cleveland, I think it will ring the death knell for smaller market franchises. I mean, how will a Cleveland/Portland/Sacramento sized markets attract enough talent to be truly competitive for the championship?

What we're seeing here is the lesson learned by the players from the success of the "Boston experiment". We brought 3 players together to create instant championship. They are now trying to re-create that in another city.

The longterm effect on the league however, if it works a second time, will be seen in the years to come.

bob

.

Bob,

In the original "Boston experiment", it took a GM with a vision to meld three great players together with trades. Lucky for us that Danny didn't have to renounce our MLE and BAE in order to get it all in under the sal-cap rules. We were able to split the MLE to get Posey and House because there wasn't much left over after the trades. The Boston experiment was management orchestrated.

If the Heat get bron in addition to Wade and Bosh, it will have been mostly thanks to free agency. The Heat will probably not have those exceptions (MLE & BAE) available to them since they would have had to renounce them to get so much under the sal-cap. The Miami Heat experiment was mostly player orchestrated.

gyso

gyso,

True. My point is that these Boston Celtics have produced a new paradigm. Yes, it was Danny doing most of the work, with cooperation from KG when he ok'd the trade, and the players didn't decide to make the collective sacrifices until after they were already together, but the end result is the same.

In this case, the dynamics might be reversed (although Pat Riley deserves credit for working so hard to shed cap $ so he could be positioned for this moment), but the end result is the same.

bob

.

[bobheckler]

BTW, what's the deal with MSG and the mystique there? I understand the Willis Reed moment and the two championships won there decades ago along with the boxing events that took place there in the 70's, but why does that place get so much hype? Is that it? Give me a break!

And another thinkg that ticks me off...with all this hype in the NBA about who is the best of all time, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, blah, blah, blah, how come no one ever mentions the 11 rings Bill Russell won as being so far out there in first place that no one will ever come near it as a player?

MSG has a billion+ dollar TV Network in the NY/NJ/CT region. It's not the arena but the TV revenue.

I have no idea how great Bill Russell was but having the most rings doesn't mean he was the best player.

TJ,

It means he was the best winner and maybe the best TEAM player. Not necessarily the best individual player. Fortunately, basketball is a TEAM sport.

bob

.

[bobheckler]

If LeBron leaves Cleveland, I think it will ring the death knell for smaller market franchises. I mean, how will a Cleveland/Portland/Sacramento sized markets attract enough talent to be truly competitive for the championship?

What we're seeing here is the lesson learned by the players from the success of the "Boston experiment". We brought 3 players together to create instant championship. They are now trying to re-create that in another city.

The longterm effect on the league however, if it works a second time, will be seen in the years to come.

bob

.

bob,

The small market teams rebuild their franchises throught the draft. Sacramento has a lot of young talent and will probably get another top 10 draft pick this year.
Look at what Seattle/OKC did through the draft. They are a very good young team.
Small market teams will be fine after a couple of years of rebuilding.
LeBron is not required to be the savior of Cleveland his whole career.

TJ,

OKC is one. Name another. Sacramento's going nowhere. I don't think GSW, my local team, will go anywhere.

Rebuilding through the draft is dicey, at best. Atlanta has been trying to do it for a few years now and can't get over the hump. Cleveland tried to build through the draft by drafting LeBron. Right now, the bets are that that worked out for them just long enough for him to realize he's too good for them and is going to cut them loose.

LeBron doesn't owe Cleveland and his homestate of Ohio the rest of his career. He's only 26.

bob

.

[RosalieTCeltics]

My thoughts on what Danny did in 2007-2008 are that he brought three guys together who were on the backside of their careers. Where they were, there was no chance of winning a title. Bringing these three guys together, to me, is a little different from what is happening now. Wade, Bosh and Lebron are all in their mid-to upper 20's. Eight to ten more years at least of basketball left in them. I just don't think you can make a comparison to the Big Three of the Celtics who were brought together and these young guys. That is not to say that they do not have the right to band together and go for a title, but they are in the prime of their basketball lives. The Big Three weren't. In my eyes, what they accomplished is a little more astounding than what may or may not happen with these three guys.

You are right, Bob, LeBron doesn't owe Cleveland anything, except maybe a
little bit of hope. It will be a sad day in Cleveland tonight if he decides to leave.

[mrkleen09]

I have no idea how great Bill Russell was but having the most rings doesn't mean he was the best player.

Now THERE is the TJ I know and love. Welcome back

[Sam]

I am so eternally grateful that I couldn't give a rat's ass about the totally irrelevant greatness of individual players in what is supposed to be a team game. If I did care, which I don't, I'd have to point out that there has been only one player who could absolutely insist on winning when all the marbles were up for grabs and could pull it off virtually every time. Only one....the reason why I never once lost my $20-to-nothing bets. It's all about the team, and all the rest is for what I consider fan titillation. Here's to that kind of titillation for those who crave it. I'm just glad not to care about it personally.

Sam

[tjmakz]

It looks like Mike D'Antoni feels Lebron is going to Miami:

Knicks officials conceded Thursday that they are likely out of the James sweepstakes with Mike D'Antoni going as far as to say he is "stunned" by James' apparent decision to leave Cleveland and join the Miami Heat along with Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and of course Riley, the former Knicks coach who led the Lakers and Heat to titles. New York Daily News.

Miami is also trying to sign Mike Miller if they can move Beasley in a 4 team trade.

[Sam]

I was hoping the Celtics could get Beasley for Sheed's contract. They need one more good big.

Sam

[dbrown4]

bobh,

Maybe shrinking the league is needed regarding where this will go with your point given the new paradigm.

Do you think they can get it back to just 8 teams all loaded like Miami is about to be? Now that would be some basketball we could all sink our teeth into. Get rid of all the riff-raff and have all-star games every game, every night.

How long will it be before the new paradigm becomes "Hey, instead of the Big 3, let's get 5 whales on the team @ $10,000,000 a piece (ala Rondo) and ride this gravy train 'til the cows come home." Danny sold 3, just add two more. Somebody's going to easily sell that. That will further shrink the league to your point Bob.

[dbrown4]

Sam,

Thank you for your direct answer. Very enlightening and well thought out especially for those of us who just missed the Russell era and who can only live it through the eyes of great Celtic fans like yourself. Well written and said as always.

db

[tjmakz]

bobh,

Just because a small market team doesn't win a championship doesn't mean it's a death knell for the team.
OKC/GS/NJ/SAC/MEM are all up and coming teams that are rebuilding through the draft.
Atlanta has just drafted poorly over the years. They are not going to get to the next level when they draft Sheldon Williams at #3 and Marvin Williams at #2.

LeBron hasn't won a championship in 7 years in Cleveland.
With Cleveland's roster, they are not winning anytime soon.

LeBron has every right to try to win a championship with another team.

[tjmakz]

5 hours to THE DECISION.

LOL.

[gyso]

5 hours to THE DECISION.

LOL.

I cannot hold my breath that long. How shall I cope?

[Matty]

hoopsworld has a survey about where people would like to see lebron end up.. apparently mostly celtic fans are voting cuz a full 45% voted in the "couldnt care less" catagory

http://www.hoopsworld.com/

[beat]

I just voted on 4 computers at work and raised the I don't give a shit number to 46.2%

beat

[Sam]

I'm going out to buy my floss now.

[beat]

Sam

regular or the mint flavored?

beat

[gyso]

I found an avatar a couple of months ago that is apt:

[tjmakz]

Here's the line of the day: (Not from me)

"The Knicks sent Isiah to woo LeBron? Shoulda just sent Stephon Marbury."

[beat]

Matty over 48% now!

beat

[bobheckler]

bobh,

Maybe shrinking the league is needed regarding where this will go with your point given the new paradigm.

Do you think they can get it back to just 8 teams all loaded like Miami is about to be? Now that would be some basketball we could all sink our teeth into. Get rid of all the riff-raff and have all-star games every game, every night.

How long will it be before the new paradigm becomes "Hey, instead of the Big 3, let's get 5 whales on the team @ $10,000,000 a piece (ala Rondo) and ride this gravy train 'til the cows come home." Danny sold 3, just add two more. Somebody's going to easily sell that. That will further shrink the league to your point Bob.

dbrown,

A new paradigm doesn't necessarily require going to the extreme end of that paradigm. You can't win without experienced, veteran talent. You can play, you just can't win. When the teams that win championships are teams that are consistently way over the salary cap and the teams that can't afford that don't, that affects fan enthusiasm. I live in NorCal, I see it everyday with GSW fans.

As far as 5 whales winning the championship and nobody else, doesn't that pretty much describe the Lakers? You've got Kobe, Gasol, Artest, Bynum and Odom and that's pretty much it. The rest of the team played few minutes for most of the season and even fewer in the playoffs. So, I guess you're right about someone selling it. Somebody did.

I got your sarcasm though.

bob

.

[tjmakz]

gyso,

Are you going to start a Game On thread for LeBron tonight?

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