Re: Official: Shaquile O'Neal a Boston Celtic Thread

[cowens/oldschool]

Agree with all your assesments Sam and dboss,hes an older Shaq,but he still has enough to greatly help us when hes on the floor,hes still got to be one of the 3 most physical players at the position in the league.I'd even like to start him.

[Sam]

Cow,

I can't see Shaq as a starter, if for no other reason that he's much more suited to bench-type minutes at this point in his career. I think inserting JO at center is as much of a deviation from a winning formula as the starters can and should handle.

I'm personally very interested in what happens if the Celtics introduce more offensive versatility and surer hands to the starting unit. I see them potentially gaining more on offense than they'll lose on defense in substituting JO for Perk. But if Shaq played with the sterters, I'd expect either of two things to happen. Either Shaq would be a pooped liability during the last few minutes of each shift with the starters, or he'd have to come out early and force the starters to acclimate to two different styles of center play during every shift.

Last season, JO played 28.4 minutes a game, precisely equaling his career average. Shaq played 23.4 MPG, which is 12 minutes below his career average. It seems to me that JO fits the starter mold better than Shaq does. Doc might disagree, in which case I'll get him fired. (lol)

Sam

[Outside]

Sam,

I agree -- JO to start, Shaq off the bench. JO is more of a complementary player who will benefit from playing with the starters, and Shaq can dominate the the other team's reserves and/or force them to play their starting center more minutes. Everything I've heard so far is that Shaq has agreed to play a backup role -- is that right? I'm sure he'll get the occasional opportunity to start, since JO isn't the iron man of NBA centers.

Outside

[Sam]

Outside,

I don't recall his specifying a starting or bench role with the Celtics. But he did say he'd play as little as five minutes if that's what they need. While that may have been a bit of an exaggeration, it doesn't sound to me that he was intent on playing a starter's minutes.

Sam

[dbrown4]

Sam,

Rumors on ESPN Insider and Michael Cunnignham of ATL Journal Constitution hinting Shaq has sights on starting for BOS.

Shaquille O'Neal had been linked with Atlanta and Boston the last few weeks and decided to sign a minimum contract with the Celtics this week. Michael Cunningham of The Atlanta Journal-Constitution has the scoop why he didn't end up with the Hawks.

Cunningham writes: "I've been told that Atlanta wouldn't budge on giving Shaq a starting nod over Al Horford, who is after all still only 24-years old and an All-Star. Shaq believes he will get the starting nod over Jermaine O'Neal in Boston as Kendrick Perkins rehabs from his knee injury. Atlanta also wasn't willing to pay Shaq more than the minimum and that was a sticking point for him. He didn't want to sign for the minimum when the Hawks had their bi-annual and mid-level exceptions available because of the perception that would create -- as in the Hawks could have paid him more but didn't. That's not the case with Boston, which had neither of those exceptions and so could only give him the minimum."

For what it's worth. BTW, is this OK to post/copy from Insider? I am a member there. I just copied it and it didn't stop me. Sam, if not OK, just delete/erase. db

[worcester]

Shaq's signing is a case of addition through subtraction. Now Miami doesn't have Shaq, and we won't have to face him in the playoffs when our own center will be rcovering from knee surgery. Why the Heat didn't sign him I'll never know because Miami is weakest at the center spot and he didn't sign for much money.

[tjmakz]

Outside,

I don't recall his specifying a starting or bench role with the Celtics. But he did say he'd play as little as five minutes if that's what they need. While that may have been a bit of an exaggeration, it doesn't sound to me that he was intent on playing a starter's minutes.

Sam

Sam,

Multiple sources have come out and said that the main reason Shaq didn't sign with Atlanta is because they wouldn't guarantee that he would start.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/shaq-opts-for-celtics-585103.html

[bobheckler]

I've had a day to think about this.

I think Shaq, at the veterans minimum, is a steal. He knows the game, the refs know him (an advantage over Erden and others) and his production per 36 minutes is still pretty good. Howard and other monsters won't be able to push him around, like they might be able to do with JO. Furthermore, he'll only be asked to play 15-23 mpg (I'm assuming, a year older, he won't be playing MORE minutes than last year).

One thing I am concerned about, though, is our pick-and-roll defense. Without Tony, our perimeter defense just got weaker. Will Shaq's relatively immobile defense allow rollers to get into the paint and to the iron because Shaq doesn't come off his man quick enough? I'd love Shaq to think about being a passing big man in the pivot. He's still big and strong enough to make opposing teams cheat on defense and that will open up a shooter.

Hard to believe, though, that we just replaced Perk with a player who shoots free throws even worse than him.

bob

.

[worcester]

But the rest of his offense is better than Perk.

[Sam]

Outside,

Apparently, Shaq would rather be a non-starter with the varsity than a non-starter with the junior varsity. I have to believe that the possibility of being a key figure in winning rings with the two greatest franchises is really appealing to him.

Sam

[NYCelt]

...One thing I am concerned about, though, is our pick-and-roll defense. Without Tony, our perimeter defense just got weaker. Will Shaq's relatively immobile defense allow rollers to get into the paint and to the iron because Shaq doesn't come off his man quick enough? I'd love Shaq to think about being a passing big man in the pivot. He's still big and strong enough to make opposing teams cheat on defense and that will open up a shooter.

Hard to believe, though, that we just replaced Perk with a player who shoots free throws even worse than him.

bob

.

Bob,

Regarding the passage in bold above; I have no doubt. The way we presently are built to defend this is one of the liabilities that concerns me with Shaq.

Nice idea about passing from the pivot though.

Regards

[NYCelt]

Outside,

Apparently, Shaq would rather be a non-starter with the varsity than a non-starter with the junior varsity. I have to believe that the possibility of being a key figure in winning rings with the two greatest franchises is really appealing to him.

Sam

Sam,

You just pretty much summed up my high school basketball career and the reason I stuck with baseball in college.

Regards

[jeb]

Imagine if Doc says something like this "Big fella they are all saying you are done, washed up...we will look for you in the flow of the offense but I dont want you to worry to much about scoring, It'l come. We want you to put your complete focus on banging and rebounding the basketball, we want you to remember those beautiful outlet passes you threw back in the day. And we want you to set bone jarring 80's picks to open up our shooters."

[tjmakz]

Why is it when bobheckler and NYCelt bring up Shaq's deficiencies in the pick and roll defense, nobody says a word to them but when I brought it up, I was lambasted over it?

I know some here are Celtics fans and not necessarily NBA fans that watch the games that the Celtics aren't playing in. I watch games from all teams and I can't count how many times Shaq had to be taken out of the game because of early foul trouble or because he was getting torched on the defensive side of the ball. Varejo and Hickson had to replace Shaq countless times.

He will be an effective offensive player but he is a big liability on the defensive side.

[jeb]

Tj

Hey doode we are all just trying to take this in. And enjoying it. You are getting a bit black cloudy with your downerism stuff. OF COURSE he cant defend the pick and roll. We just signed a really big guy who can REBOUND and catch the ball and score some at the center spot. We have not had that for some time. And we are exploring the poss of what 20 points a nite from shaq/ jermaine can and will mean for us.

Ease off the throttle with the negativity for a minute and let us have our moment. I say this to you with respect.

I feel we lost last year because we just could not score or rebound enough. I feel like we have addressed that pretty well.

[tjmakz]

I got your drift that at this time you are not looking for possible negative opinions. I am ok with that.

Can't talk about Harangody or other newly drafted players.
Can't talk about Shaq.
Can't talk about Wafer.
I'm good now.

We could always talk Sox/Yankees...

[jeb]

Tj

there is plenty of time to talk negatives and we will all do so the second we see them. Right now all you talk is negatives. Lot of us are talking poss right now.

It's cool bra...your answer was pretty passive aggressive there.

You are trending a little bdc these days. Your 2004 comment was TEXTBOOK bdc.

[dbrown4]

Come on tj, it's because you're an argumentative Laker fan on a Celtic site. Besides, there are several very skilled dabaters/writers on this site, myself not included, that have an armata of data, stats, one-liners, etc. that just need one delicately placed spark to absolutely send them into orbit. Enter an argumentative Laker fan, for example.

In your bio you actually mention you enjoy arguing with the opposition, and as brave and commendable as that may be, some/most of the guys and gals on this site honed their skill on bdc for many years and can/do make basically irrefutable, unbreakable arguments even against those who try to pick a fight. They can essentially reduce an opposing, unsubstantiated argument down to an instant contradiction or Reductio Ad Absurduum for the Latin/math majors in the crowd. Most people will continue to further argue their point making themselves look even more desparate and well, comical. In other words, they don't know they've been duped and they still keep going on. (Monty Python Holy Grail Knight scene comes to mind)

In other words, if you're going to step into a ring with a lion, you better bring a whip, chair, a trainer and a gun with bullets. Or better yet, just don't go in.

Back on bdc there have been some absolute blood bath slaughters against really unarmed men (or women for that matter), all well thought out and undisputable.

Your persona online just evokes a initial sense of raising the hair on the back of one's neck, that's all. Nothing wrong with that. We all appreciate the diversity you bring to this site. You help the rest of us not so skilled debaters sharpen our game before we step in the cage and for that I am forever thankful.

You bring up a good point about maybe most of us should watch a few more games with other teams than just watching th Celtics. I'm going to commit to that this next season. Besides the obvious Miami season, I'll do my best to look around the league with LP.

Finally, we may have some business common ground with you in the TPA/Retirement Plan arena. Finding a great TPA on my end is just about impossible, but if you fit the bill we can chat offline.

db

[tjmakz]

Tj

there is plenty of time to talk negatives and we will all do so the second we see them. Right now all you talk is negatives. Lot of us are talking poss right now.

It's cool bra...your answer was pretty passive aggressive there.

You are trending a little bdc these days. Your 2004 comment was TEXTBOOK bdc.

So be it.

[sinus007]

Why is it when bobheckler and NYCelt bring up Shaq's deficiencies in the pick and roll defense, nobody says a word to them but when I brought it up, I was lambasted over it?

Because of your avatar
Just kidding!

TJ,
I believe that the jury is still out on Shaq in green. I think that all here are aware of his deficiencies and I'm pretty sure that DA and Doc know about them even better. So far, we, fans, are stuck with him in green. I think that majority of folks here being Celtics fans hope that his deficiencies bring less points to the opponents than his mass, rebounding and scoring bring to Celtics. You, on the other hand being Lakers fan, hope for the opposite, especially if Finals 2011 feature the same teams as Finals 2010.
Besides, if Jeb is so friendly towards you, you should feel better being here than on any Lakers forum

AK

[tjmakz]

Come on tj, it's because you're an argumentative Laker fan on a Celtic site. Besides, there are several very skilled dabaters/writers on this site, myself not included, that have an armata of data, stats, one-liners, etc. that just need one delicately placed spark to absolutely send them into orbit. Enter an argumentative Laker fan, for example.

In your bio you actually mention you enjoy arguing with the opposition, and as brave and commendable as that may be, some/most of the guys and gals on this site honed their skill on bdc for many years and can/do make basically irrefutable, unbreakable arguments even against those who try to pick a fight. They can essentially reduce an opposing, unsubstantiated argument down to an instant contradiction or Reductio Ad Absurduum for the Latin/math majors in the crowd. Most people will continue to further argue their point making themselves look even more desparate and well, comical. In other words, they don't know they've been duped and they still keep going on. (Monty Python Holy Grail Knight scene comes to mind)

In other words, if you're going to step into a ring with a lion, you better bring a whip, chair, a trainer and a gun with bullets. Or better yet, just don't go in.

Back on bdc there have been some absolute blood bath slaughters against really unarmed men (or women for that matter), all well thought out and undisputable.

Your persona online just evokes a initial sense of raising the hair on the back of one's neck, that's all. Nothing wrong with that. We all appreciate the diversity you bring to this site. You help the rest of us not so skilled debaters sharpen our game before we step in the cage and for that I am forever thankful.

You bring up a good point about maybe most of us should watch a few more games with other teams than just watching th Celtics. I'm going to commit to that this next season. Besides the obvious Miami season, I'll do my best to look around the league with LP.

Finally, we may have some business common ground with you in the TPA/Retirement Plan arena. Finding a great TPA on my end is just about impossible, but if you fit the bill we can chat offline.

db

db,

I was on bdc for years. As in honed skills do you mean the RajonRondowski's of BDC?
Some here do have an excellent way of writing but that doesn't mean that they are right. It is their opinion. You don't get extra credit or credibility for using the most or longest words.
I'm sorry, I am not going to just flat out agree with everyone here just to get along.
I state my opinion whether it is pro or con the Celtics or Lakers. I killed LA last year over their bench and the way they didn't take the regular season seriously.
I am absolutely not an unarmed man when it comes to talking about the NBA.
I did get a kick out of your wordy over-analyzation.

Feel free to send me a pm if you choose.

[worcester]

TJ: no one or shaq - who would you rather have on your team? That's our choice for the 5 spot.

[beat]

TJ

I just rewatched the Cleveland series and in game 4 Cleveland made a darn good run with shaq in the game. When he was replace by sideshow bob the C's gained better control. Actually the Cavs seemed to do better with Shaq on the floor till Bron basically quit on um.

We have no idea how much he will play or whom he will be out there with. Probably will be with some starters and some bench, the guy may even start some himself.

To say Shaq will be poor in some way is a total judgement call for we do not even know how he will be used.

Why such worry about a Celtic team YOU don't even support?

I just keep wonderin why.

Personally I would NEVER go on a laker site period.

Just my opinion.

beat

[tjmakz]

TJ: no one or shaq - who would you rather have on your team? That's our choice for the 5 spot.

Shaq would be my 2nd choice for Boston.
It is a good signing at the Vet Min.

[tjmakz]

TJ

I just rewatched the Cleveland series and in game 4 Cleveland made a darn good run with shaq in the game. When he was replace by sideshow bob the C's gained better control. Actually the Cavs seemed to do better with Shaq on the floor till Bron basically quit on um.

We have no idea how much he will play or whom he will be out there with. Probably will be with some starters and some bench, the guy may even start some himself.

To say Shaq will be poor in some way is a total judgement call for we do not even know how he will be used.

Why such worry about a Celtic team YOU don't even support?

I just keep wonderin why.

Personally I would NEVER go on a laker site period.

Just my opinion.

beat

beat,

WOW, I didn't think that Boston fans thought that LeBron quit on his team against the Celtics.
If you don't know by now, I am a huge NBA fan. I follow more then just the Lakers.
Shaq's defense has been poor and he has missed at least 15 games in 7 of the last 9 years. (Missed 29 last year). I can't imagine that his D or health will get any better. Yes, he is better then Kwame Brown, Mbenga, etc.
I know you only would rather have this forum as an exclusive Celtics forum. Different strokes for different folks...

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