Could Labron Be Headed Down The Same Path As Wlliams & Banks?

by **112288** Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:03 am

Another loss this time to Chicago tonight. Could Labron James be headed down the same road as Ted Williams and Ernie Banks? Could be. This may sound funny but he could be too good for his own team's good. I don't see him winning the title in Cleveland and with talks heating up about NY, he may be heading there if he does not win in Cleveland. But NY is a ways off from ever getting better even with him there. He runs into the same problem he has in Cleveland, he's the best player on the court for them surrounded by a cast of semi good players. Shaq is great but cannot log the minutes as he once did. It could take him a good 3 years before the Knicks could even imagine taking a run at the east title and who knows what happens when you enter the play-offs.

Labron is best going to the Lakers if he wants instant success. This could only take place through a trade which might help Cleveland in the long run.

112288

by **gacracker** Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:16 am

I've never been a big fan of Lebron. Not sure why. He doesn't seem to really make those around him better players... and he tries to do too much when the game is on the line. A turnoff. I don't respect his game although he is a wonderful, unearthly talent.

Can't ever see him wearing Celtic green and really don't want him to. He's a wonderful foil.. someone I enjoy rooting against... like I did with Wilt or KAJ or KB. Seems odd rooting that hard against someone like James, someone not in Laker colors.

gc

by **jeb** Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:52 am

The Cavs are in deep shit. Shaq is fat and old and they have two shooters. Gibson and Mo. Both those guys spot their drawers under any kind of pressure.

Z tried to play inside all night!

Jeb

by **Sam** Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:45 am

Individuals seldom win championships. Teams win championships. You don't just get an aging star like Shaq and assume he'll be a missing piece to the puzzle. You get an aging star like Sheed BECAUSE he'll be a missing piece to the puzzle at both ends of the floor and makes life far easier for the players around him. You don't just get a guy like Parker because he statistically seems to fit a need. You get a guy like Daniels who's a "gap-filler," doing whatever anyone else on the floor is not doing at the moment.

You build toward chemistry, not toward credentials. And, from the little I've seen so far, that's Cleveland's problem.

Sam

by **Jerry Tarkanian** Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:09 am

I agree, Sam, and see a 50-54 win season in Cleveland...........potentially second place in their own division.

Orlando surprisingly seems to have great chemistry after a multitude of off season moves, I will be attending their next home game and will update on that.

Celts few moves in the off season are already showing dividends and perhaps best team chemistry in the league to date.

by **mrkleen09** Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:03 am

WAY too early to start trying to predict where LeBron's career will go.

Guy is an absolute monster and as time goes on, he will see that he already has enough money for 100 lifetimes - and start looking for a place to win.

He is a good teammate and by all accounts a decent person, so I see no reason why he wont win a few championships in his time. Just wont be this year, and after the debacle by the lake - he is out of Cleveland on the first private jet the morning after the Cavs are eliminated from the playoffs.

I say he ends up on the Knicks next year, but could also be Chicago as they clearly have a better young nucleus. Time will tell.

by **beat** Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:15 am

LAst night

Close game

Cav's down one as time is runniing down.

Bron with the ball.

4 others watching

Bron drives draws contact to some degree. Shot misses, no call.

Cavs loose.

Could he have dissed to a wide open teamate? Pehaps.
Should he have do so if the pass was there?

He must realize that even with the game on the line, and as good as he is, he cannot win a game by himself.

Cleveland has now lost as many home games as they did all last season.
Shaq and Z offer bodies big one but can be handled by most teams.

Wonder what Bron os really thinking. He did handle the no call/foul well in post game comments. Said there was contact from both Chicago players but did not trash the call.

Chicago is an up and coming team.

Where will Bron end up cause he is not going to win in Cleveland with this bunch. Any chance Orlando could work something out for him?

beat

by **KellyGreen17** Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:34 am

I'm thinking LeBron might end up with New Jersey. They have some good young players in Devin Harris, Brooke Lopez and CDR. They were just bought by that Russion millionaire and are talking of moving to Brooklyn. They are slated to have $25-$27 million in cap space in 2010. Could happen!

by **112288** Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:37 am

KellyGreen17 wrote:I'm thinking LeBron might end up with New Jersey. They have some good young players in Devin Harris, Brooke Lopez and CDR. They were just bought by that Russion millionaire and are talking of moving to Brooklyn. They are slated to have $25-$27 million in cap space in 2010. Could happen!

Good pick. Perhaps but no lights, action, camera and some how Stern would never allow that to happen to the Knicks.

112288

by **KellyGreen17** Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:05 pm

Somehow I have a feeling that the lights and cameras will follow LeBron wherever he goes. Add that to the fact that Brooklyn isn't exactly rural America and it seems plausible to me. Jay-Z is part owner of the Nets and I hear he and LBJ are friendly. I don't think Stern really has all that much say in where players go. No conspiracy theories from me!

by **cowens/oldschool** Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:11 pm

KellyGreen17 wrote:I'm thinking LeBron might end up with New Jersey. They have some good young players in Devin Harris, Brooke Lopez and CDR. They were just bought by that Russion millionaire and are talking of moving to Brooklyn. They are slated to have $25-$27 million in cap space in 2010. Could happen!

I thought about that too,they could get rid of some junk and sign even another good player to go with Lebron and Jay Z is part owner of Nets.....cool and I live in NJ!!!!!could wear my Pierce jersey to those games

by **dbrown4** Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:38 pm

If LeBron is a gambling man and he wants the best chance to win a champoinship or several beyond life in Cleveland, it's LAL or BOS. It will be interesting to see how Danny plays this because whether we like it or not, salary cap or not, LeBron is in the running to come to Boston. Now if DA rebuffs early, then we're out. I haven't heard anything to the contrary yet.

Danny F. just moved the task from the back of his mind of updating his resume to the forefront. Just as a precaution.

It will also be interesting to see if LeBron wants $$ or a championship. He won't/can't get both. He takes $$, you get no support, Cleveland all over again or worse. You want a championship, take a pay cut. Take a look at SW. If you were his employer, you'd be giving him a raise before SW would even think about it. Same with MD. Definitely with Rasheed. Boston is the absolute master of getting EVERYONE they bring in to focus in on and buy into THE TEAM. It truly blows my mind. In an age of LeBron's and KoMEs and millions of $$, how do you do that? Delayed gratification. Old concept. Does it win championship all the time? We are about to find out!!

I know most of us have rejected the idea of LeBron in Boston because he would be too much of a project. But would he really? We put KoME and LeBron in the same category. Selfish ball hogging pigs that ruin the team concept. What would Danny have to say to LeBron to get him to change his thinking? Danny's good at it. Very good. Let's face it. LeBron's been in the league only 6 years. Just suppose either through himself or those around him in his organization have filled his head with the wrong ideas? Do you crucify him, put the scarlet letter on him? You know he is curious about Boston. He can't beat us. So, when you can't beat 'em....

I'm one of those who likes beating LeBron, like a Wilt or a Jerry.

I'm thinking Danny is on the cusp of re-writing NBA history. Or at least changing the tide. Will it be with a LeBron, DWade? That I don't know. But one thing for certain, I'm going to enjoy the ride.

If Sam has said it a thousand times, it's not enough. Teams win championships. Heck, even KoMe (I love that reference whoever thought that one up!) saw you can win a championship if you get Guffaw in there to share the limelight a little.

Someone please tell me if I'm offbase here, but right now LeBron is in the running to come to Boston. So is Bosh, DWade and everyone else. ( I think the concensus is DWade would be the best fit here) But at least think about LeBron as an option. Probably won't happen, but how would he fit in? Would management be able to tweak/change his thinking more into a team concept. He knows about team. He's proably not as far from the Celtic team concept as we may think. The problem once again is he is a square peg jammed into a round hole in Cleveland. And guess what? It's not wroking. Shocker. What does he really do best? And would it fit somehow in Boston w/o pulling up the carpet?

by **LACELTFAN** Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:49 pm

Well, using history as our guide, the best bet would be that the Yankees (as in Lakers) will get him. When ever they have a problem they throw some money at it and poof, it goes away.
I know it's more complicated than that but to a partisan Celtic fan such as myself, I see the Lakers as the Yankees sans pin stripes.

by **beat** Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:04 pm

dbrown

You forgot one thing.
He can't come here, his #23 is retired!

beat

by **dbrown4** Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:29 pm

True, forgot about that. But that would be his first lesson in Celtic team play. Forget about YOUR number.

You know Danny would present him with several scenarios, each one with an outcome, a very likely outcome. This would apply no matter who he was talking to.

For example,

Scenario #1 - Blank check. You fill it in, LeBron. Outcome - You will retire a very wealthy man. You will have whatever you want. No championship. Ever. For any team.

Scenario #2 - Stay in Cleveland. We wouldn't be talking if that was one of your options. Once again, No Championship

Scenario #3 - Go to New York. This equals 8 years ago in Cleveland. Oh yeah, that's right, you weren't there 8 years ago. Again, No Championship for you.

Scenario #4 - Go to LAL - Only you and KoMe would be playing. Not any more $$ to pay a coach, other players, Jerry, etc. Obviously, NC.

Scenario #5 - Go to Orlando. Knew how to win a championship but they ran out of $$ I think. One and done, maybe. Your best option of the 5 presented.

Scenario #6 - Come to Boston - We know how to win championships here and do it within the means. Here are our scenarios...

#1 - Blank check - $$, no championship
#2 - Slight paycut, trade a Ray Allen and some loose change - maybe one championship in a few years. You won't make the Celtic faithful love you very much because someone else will be winning championships, not you.
#3 - Moderate pay cut - a couple of championships, but you won't be mentioned in the same breath with Michael
#4 - Large paycut - Multiple championships, probably a 3-peat. Michael's name in the ballpark
#5 - Play for free or close to it - Celtic Dynasty, six championships at least - Number retired, part of history.

BTW, what does Bill Russell say about LeBron, expiring contracts, Boston, etc.? Sam, anything off the record on that or what he might say if someone asked him or Sam Jones for that matter given that interview a couple of weeks ago?

by **Sam** Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:09 pm

Dbrown,

I haven't a clue about what Russ or Sam or Havlicek or Larry (who might actually be a more interested spectator) would have to say about Lebron, although I'm sure they'd agree he's a major talent.

I know this is hard to believe; but, when I converse with Sam, we only infrequently talk about basketball. Occasionally he chooses to reveal something basketball related, and I've always been a person with antennae all over the place to pick up things; but I just don't question him about basketball. He's too good a friend for me to deign to relegate him to that position.

I suppose stranger things have happened than for Danny to find a way to afford a Lebron. But somehow Bron just doesn't seem like a "Celtics fit" to me. I don't necessarily think he's a ball hog any more than people called Paul Pierce a ball hog before became surrounded by teammates in whom he could have confidence. In the right circumstances, with the right motivation, I wouldn't bet against Lebron's being able to make himself a cog of a great machine.

But somehow, his demeanor, his almost "in-your-face" self-assurance, the way he struts backward on defense after making a shot, suggests to me that he'd have less acclimating to do in a "Showtime"/LA atmosphere of adulation than in a Celtics structure and a Boston "show me" environment.

It's sometimes difficult to know which is the cause and which is the effect. But my general tendency has been to associate the Lakers with players who are comfortable in the spotlight and to associate the Celtics with players who more instinctively exercise deference. I'm certain people could find exceptions to that statement, but I'm talking as a general rule. And frankly I believe Lebron is headed more in the direction of the spotlight than in the direction of deference.

It'll certainly be interesting to see how things play out.

Sam

by **Sam** Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:23 pm

Hey Bill Laimbeer,

Are you a Florida resident? If so, how did you get interested in Laimbeer?

Sam

by **Jerry Tarkanian** Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:35 pm

Hi Sam,

Greetings from Gainesville, FL.

Go Gators !

Grew up in Duxbury, MA, moved to Las Vegas in the 80's. Pistons held their training camp there in the day and, working at Caesar's, got to know many of the players personally. Having maintained those ties, find I gain insights I might not otherwise hold true.

Really not a Detroit fan, have always enjoyed well played ball as the Pistons did during that time and the Cets do now.

Appreciate the time and dedication you have obviously invested in this site, Sam.

by **spikeD** Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:42 pm

I've read most of the book tour interviews Bill gave last summer and don't remember ever hearing James's name mentioned. Bill and Sam Jones would say that you win as a team. Can Lebron be a team player? That's the $64 million (per year) question.

Bill maintained that his (Bill's) game was all about making the players around him better, getting rebounds, making passes, setting picks, switching to cover someone else's man, blocking shots, etc. Does Lebron do anything designed solely to make his teammates better? I don't see it.

Still, he has all the help he needs right there in Cleveland and it's a long season. If he listens to his coaches, if he uses his teammates the right way, they can be scary. It has to be difficult for someone like Lebron, who has had people fawning all over him since his first steroid injection, I mean, since he was a teenager, to listen to other people's advice. But if you can't take advice from Shaq, you may as well quit.

by **dbrown4** Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:52 pm

Good points, Sam. I'm not touting LeBron in any way coming to Boston. He is "above" the type of player that fits/works in Boston. But let's face it. Most of us had to "adjust" some with Rasheed coming to Boston. (Heck, Starbury for that matter) Until we saw the Big 3 with management fly out and hang with Rasheed...then we came on board. Now everyone's on the bandwagon with the greatest FA pick since sliced bread.

Where does LeBron fit in the above scenarios? Too far out? Somewhere in range between SW and Starbury? Clearly the Starbury experiment is a bad mark because it forced a superstar to swollow a huge amount of ego and it was a huge mistake for Starubury and us for that matter, so maybe Boston will not even consider it again with LeBron.

by **jeb** Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:31 pm

Lebron is a great passer. He has great court sense. Before last year I really liked him as a player.

I work in the stupid film business and you sometimes see directors whom are making 50,000 a day and you can tell it's been 20 years since somebody told them how full of shit they are. They WANT somebody not to kneel at their feet but the money train is rolling.

I see a lot of that in this situation. A kid. Who NEEDS boundries. But nobody wants to scare the golden goose. At this point I see "King James" as more Laker than Celtic. More Cowboy than steeler more Yankee than red sox.

But. With someone like KG who wold be willing to say you know what you aint "king" here. You are one guy. I have what you want. If you want it bad enough get your ass in line. ANd while your at it work on that jumper all summer. I dont see the kid as beyond help. But the window is closing and I think his ego is running the show.

Jeb

by **sinus007** Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:04 pm

Jeb,
I agree with you. IMHO, Lebron is like a huge diamond that Nature created and people discovered. Up till now it's been cleaned of dirt, roughly polished and its price, due to size and clarity, is through the roof. But nobody cut it into perfect shape and polished and put in a beautiful golden ring. As it's been done w/MJ. Oh well...

AK

by **jeb** Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:05 pm

Damn Sinus you just lapped me in way fewer words! Well done!

Jeb

by **Outside** Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:19 pm

It's way too early to say how good the Cavs will be this season. Mo Williams and Z haven't shot well so far (they were an awful 4-22 last night), Moon has shot poorly in limited minutes, and West has had "issues" that have obviously impacted his play and the team's success. All of those situations should improve as the season progresses. Shaq is long past his best days, but I do think he helps them at both ends of the court, and his presence can help players like Varajao, Hickson, Moon, and even Parker get open looks and sneak in for rebounds and garbage points. If Powe can come back and contribute, that's another plus. I'm inclined to think they'll be a solid team by the end of the season.

Their biggest problem is reverting to "everyone spread the floor and watch LeBron" when the going gets tough. It would be nice if they had a coach who didn't have "catering to Lebron at all times" as part of his job description. I'm not a dedicated Cavs fan, but I can't think of any instances of the Cavs winning a playoff game in the last minute by someone other than Lebron making the shot. With Jordan's Bulls, you had John Paxson and Steve Kerr making winning shots in the finals, and with Kobe's Lakers you have guys like Robert Horry and Derek Fisher who have won games. I strongly believe that Lebron won't win a title as long as he's the only go-to guy at the end of close games. The belief that someone else can make that shot has to be in Lebron's mind, the coach's mind, and the other players' minds, and at this point in his career, none of them believe it. One of the worst things to happen to him was that playoff game against Detroit in 2007 when he made 29 of the Cavs' last 30 points. It proved to all of them that he was superman, and superman won't give the ball to Jimmy Olson with the game on the line.

As far as where Lebron goes after this year, I can't imagine any scenario that puts him in Boston or LA, and frankly, I don't know why either team would want him. Even if you disregard the salary cap and luxury tax issues, you could get far more championship bang for the buck by using the Lebron budget to sign several excellent complementary players. As far as getting Lebron to sign for modest money to play on either the Celtics or Lakers, I don't see it happening. He's the MVP of the league and you want him to do what? You think his agent will even take that offer to him? Other guys will have to make sacrifices to play with him.

Outside

by **dbrown4** Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:22 pm

That's what I'm talking about, Jeb. Is this kid, and he is still a kid, able to pull himself above the fray and see his future. Can someone help him from making a terrible mistake. Clearly, he wants to be Michael Jordan. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. We all want to be MJ. Has he surrounded himself with the right people, on and off the court? Absolutely not. Now it's really starting to show.

In his case, money really shouldn't/can't be the issue. He does/will have all he wants. He will make much more off the court than on it no matter where he goes. Ask Michael.

So it has to be the ring. What do you do? Go to where there are rings available...LAL and BOS. Every other sitiuation is a project and a crap shoot. And if he goes anywhere else than those two places, he may never get one ring. How horrendous would that be? Ask Charles Barkley. Poor guy. Great player. Great analyst on TNT, but no ring. Butt of every ring joke.

LAL already has two superstars. Probably not enough room $$wise for a third without clearing the remaining starters and the bench out in a trade. Can't field a team with 3 players. How many championships would LeBron get with LAL before the clock runs out? 1 or 2 max. Far cry from his idol, Michael.

DA will scare the golden goose with those scenarios I presented above. Lebron can say one of two things. "I think I know more than you, Mr. Ainge. I respectfully decline your offer and am going to pursue other avenues, probably Madison." Or, "Tell me more about how you guys kept beating me and Cleveland. Why we could never win a championship? If I choose one of these lesser Boston options, will you show me how to win multiple championships? I am desparate to win. All I want to do is win. I will do anything to win a championship. Please somebody tell me what I have to do to win a championship."

And if LeBron's ego can take it and it's not too far gone, Danny will tell him exactly what he has to do and LeBron will hear it. He'll like most of it, hate part of it. But he will hear it.

Make no mistake. LeBron wants to win. Very badly. By this time, Michael was winning is first of his first set of threes. He's behind schedule and with this year's start, it's getting further away by the minute if he wants to be mentioned in the same breath.

Right now, and this sounds bad, but I like seeing him lose. I have nothing against him except I'm an avid Celtics fan and he and Cleveland are in our way of a championship. He comes across cocky, arrogant, selfish, whiny, bratty, unhumble. You name it.

Come this summer, I think there will be this huge fanfare and money flying everywhere, a huge ring around LeBron. But off on to the side will be Boston. Not in the race, off to the side. We will have what he really wants. But I don't think he will be able to see us. And you know what, I don't think we will want him after Starbury showed us first hand what to expect in a situation like that. And this is 10X Starbury. Can LeBron adjust better than Starbury? Of course. I don't think he would crack up and go nuts like SM did. But LeBron is in a very big pickle. I don't know if there is a win/win situation for him this summer to get him exactly what he wants.

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