LAKERS SEEKING BOSH IN TRADE!

Lakers’ deal for Raptors star has a shot
Last Updated: 7:32 AM, January 10, 2010
Posted: 3:32 AM, January 10, 2010
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Peter Vecsey
HOOP DU JOUR
As promised, today’s column is pure basketball, triggered by trade winds.
A Lakers source told me the team had its sights set high, as usual, and planned to target the possible acquisition of Chris Bosh when it got closer to the 3 p.m. Feb. 18 trade deadline, and the Raptors might be more likely to move their Olympian/All-Star while still entitled to compensation.
It commonly is believed Bosh almost certain is to flee Toronto after this season, when he has the right to opt out of the final year ($17.1 million) of his contract.
My source believes the Lakers will offer Andrew Bynum for Bosh (if they haven’t done so already) well before the deadline expires. In itself, the one-for-one swap is impossible to make. Bynum’s “base year” essentially allows L.A. to take back but half of his salary this year ($12.5M). Of course, that restriction is lifted when next year’s salary ($13.7M) activates come July 1, at which time a sign-and-trade transaction would be feasible.

AP
Chris Bosh

The possibility of such a deal makes sense to me. First of all, Bynum is a legit starting center for the defending champions. He also has three years left on his contract after this one.
As for the Raptors, despite the severe offseason roster renovation, they’re not giving any indication of being more than just a one-and-done playoff group this season and in the foreseeable future.
What’s Bosh’s motivation to stay? Clearly, management’s sense of urgency to protect its principal asset cannot be accentuated enough. If that’s impractical, the organization cannot afford to lose Bosh without receiving equitable compensation.
Asked by e-mail about all of the above and whether the Raptors and Lakers have discussed a Bosh-Bynum proposal, team president Bryan Colangelo, who surely is being contacted on a daily basis regarding the availability of his franchise player — especially when the team was 11-17 — he replied in kind:
“For the record, I am not actively seeking a deal or discussing Bosh with any team, much less the Lakers.
“I haven’t traded him yet and our position has been the same. We will not make a deal just to make a deal. Our intention is to keep him here long term.
“Additionally, I have not yet offered an extension as Dwyane Wade and LeBron James both received [from their respective teams]. So technically he has not said no.
“I honestly don’t think C.B. knows what the future holds, or what he wants to do, so I would say we’re still in the game as far as his pending free agency.”
In the meantime, the languishing Lakers may only have the marginal goods to obtain the likes of, say, Hornets’ forward Hilton Armstrong. Friday night they lost again (third straight road loss) to the Blazers (nine consecutive in Portland) and continue to showcase (I’m being kind) Sasha Vujacic (one year left at $5.475M) and free agents-in-waiting Jordan Farmar and Adam Morrison.
What are we to think when the Blazers are able to win minus six rotation players? Either it’s a great compliment to them or a blanket indictment on the Lakers minus Pau Gasol (hamstring).
As you recall, the Lakers were evicted from the playoffs in the first round the two previous tournaments before Gasol arrived Feb. 1, 2008. They’ve been Finalists since and last season experienced ultimate success.
Yes, I realize Kobe’s finger on his shooting hand is hurting for certain. I also realize he feels he must overachieve in Gasol’s absence. But hoisting 37 shots (aborting 23) in order to score 32 points is excessively egocentric even for Bryant, particularly when visiting the welfare line a mere four times.
Conversely, Brandon Roy needed just 11 shots, making nine, and a passel of free throws (13-of-14) to register his 32-point total.
I’m almost tempted to hear Tim Donaghy’s take on the Lakers launching 95 shots and only going to the line 10 times. Meanwhile, the Blazers’ numbers were 69 and 39. Don’t cringe now, but Roy and Jerryd Bayless got more free throws (14 and 12 ) than the entire Lakers team.
“I hate Portland,” Bryant might have said. “It’s like Colorado without the checkbook.”
While questioning the competence of referees (that’s all I was doing . . . really, no really), I know 3-32 — and on the road — doesn’t buy a lot of late-game calls, but Friday night in New Orleans, the Not-yet-Nyets had a better chance of seeing FEMA than Yi Jianlian get the benefit of that very offensive foul.
It’s a sad state when Screw Jersey — even with that scintillating comeback — isn’t capable of losing on its own. At this rate, come the lottery, the not-yet-Nyets are going to own all the ping pong balls . . . as well as the Chinese ping pong team.
The franchise formerly known as the Pistons hosted what used to be the Sixers last night, looking to sneak their longest skid (11 games) in 15 seasons. And here I thought Detroit’s biggest problem was some screwball in exploding underwear.
Charles Barkley hosted “Saturday Night Live” last night. And you thought NBC couldn’t screw up late night any more.
This just in, Part I: Jim O’Brien gave Larry Bird a vote of confidence.
This just in, Part II: O.J. Simpson has denied ever going to USC.
peter.vecsey@nypost.com


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/lakers_deal_for_raptors_star_has_FbaSSsePPGi1gsgGsfES9M#ixzz0cELPm2EV

After the totally lopsided Pau Gasol trade, if the NBA were allow this joke of a deal to go through - they should be investigated for collusion and unfair labor practices.

I wouldn't give you a bag of Chris Bosh' sneakers for Andrew Bynum.

For sure Bosh's name is being dangled out there by someone in management to test the waters. They are not stupid to let a guy walk without getting something in return.

Toronto's problem is how to attract players due to the question of how a guy gets paid, either in $US or $CD money. If guys get paid in US$ it is more expensive for the club due to the foreign exchange difference and visa versa is bad for a US player to get paid in $CD due to the fact that they get devalued.

112288

Let em get Bosh we'll whip his ass too.

From RealGM trade checker:
___________________________________________________

Sorry, but this trade does not work.

There were BYC players involved in this trade, so this trade is subject to the BYC provisions of the CBA. Due to Toronto and L.A. Lakers being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Toronto and L.A. Lakers had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did not happen here (only Toronto met the condition). This trade does not satisfy the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
___________________________________________________


Bynum is a BYC player and he is virtually untradeable this season (Base Year) in any kind of one-for-one trade. Peter Vecsey's discription of the BYC comes up lacking, but he is right on the sign-and-trade for next year.

So, don't worry, be happy. It can't happen until next season.

gyso

gyso wrote:From RealGM trade checker:
___________________________________________________

Sorry, but this trade does not work.

There were BYC players involved in this trade, so this trade is subject to the BYC provisions of the CBA. Due to Toronto and L.A. Lakers being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Toronto and L.A. Lakers had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did not happen here (only Toronto met the condition). This trade does not satisfy the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
___________________________________________________


Bynum is a BYC player and he is virtually untradeable this season (Base Year) in any kind of one-for-one trade. Peter Vecsey's discription of the BYC comes up lacking, but he is right on the sign-and-trade for next year.

So, don't worry, be happy. It can't happen until next season.

gyso

Another rumor swatted away by our man at the CBA desk....Good work again GYSO.

mrkleen09 wrote:After the totally lopsided Pau Gasol trade, if the NBA were allow this joke of a deal to go through - they should be investigated for collusion and unfair labor practices.

I wouldn't give you a bag of Chris Bosh' sneakers for Andrew Bynum.

Kleen-

you're kidding on both counts right ?

First, Bynum for Bosh would make a lot of sense for both teams. Bynum is a skilled young big- he is by far the best talent that will probably be realistically presented to the Raps for Bosh.

As for collusion, etc. Give me a break. Red made a living, and built the Celtics' dynasty, by routinely fleecing the other teams in the league. It's one of the reasons why he is the greatest executive in league history. Do you want to go back and undo some of the beads-for-Manhattan deals that Red pulled off b/c they were so lopsided and pull down a couple of banners in the process ? I didn't think so.

And given how Marc Gasol has been playing in Memphis for the last two years, the Gasol deal is nowhere near as lopsided as the media made it out to be. And nowhere near as lopsided as some of Red's best deals. Or to use a more recent example, how about the KG deal ?

Marc Gasol is a better player, and more durable, than Al Jefferson, so if Pau to LA was highway robbery, what was KG to the Celts ? With former Celtic HOFEr McHale pulling the trigger ? You want to talk about collusion ?

Me, I don't care. Danny's job is to get the best deals he can to make his team better. He got a great deal in the KG trade. So did the LAkers in the Gasol deal. It's called being better than the competition. There's a reason these two teams have combined to win over half of the championships in the history of the NBA.

gyso wrote:From RealGM trade checker:
___________________________________________________

Sorry, but this trade does not work.

There were BYC players involved in this trade, so this trade is subject to the BYC provisions of the CBA. Due to Toronto and L.A. Lakers being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Toronto and L.A. Lakers had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did not happen here (only Toronto met the condition). This trade does not satisfy the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
___________________________________________________


Bynum is a BYC player and he is virtually untradeable this season (Base Year) in any kind of one-for-one trade. Peter Vecsey's discription of the BYC comes up lacking, but he is right on the sign-and-trade for next year.

So, don't worry, be happy. It can't happen until next season.

gyso

gyso-

You must have been busy at work or something, b/c I know you are way more cap-savvy than that. They can absolutely do this deal this year.

Yes, they can't do a straight up swap, but the way to overcome BYC issues is to make the players part of a bigger overall deal where the 125% latitude becomes big enough to overcome the BYC incoming/outgoing issue.

Bynum, Sahsa, Ammo and Farmar for Bosh and Jack (or Banks) works under CBA even with BYC scenario. I would demand that it's Jack, as I think he's a perfect fit as a triangle lead guard (excellent shooter from deep, mid-range and attacking rim) and is a very solid defender.

This makes so much sense for both sides. Toronto gets a young big with huge upside who would be the # 1 option on the team instead of losing Bosh for nothing. (And I think BYnum would play well in Toronto, as it would be HIS team, which seems to be important to him, so it would be a win win for both teams.)

Lakers get a top-10 player AND solve the pg issue in one fell swoop, without taking on any real additional salary. They add two more players who play hard and are hungry for rings.


PS- I normally take anything from Vescey with a huge grain of salt, but this story has now come from more than a few places. I think this is a case that where there is smoke, there's fire. And I'm all for it as I think Bynum doesn't play well next to Gasol, whereas Bosh would be a very good fit by spacing the floor.

babyskyhook wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:After the totally lopsided Pau Gasol trade, if the NBA were allow this joke of a deal to go through - they should be investigated for collusion and unfair labor practices.

I wouldn't give you a bag of Chris Bosh' sneakers for Andrew Bynum.

Kleen-

you're kidding on both counts right ?

First, Bynum for Bosh would make a lot of sense for both teams. Bynum is a skilled young big- he is by far the best talent that will probably be realistically presented to the Raps for Bosh.

As for collusion, etc. Give me a break. Red made a living, and built the Celtics' dynasty, by routinely fleecing the other teams in the league. It's one of the reasons why he is the greatest executive in league history. Do you want to go back and undo some of the beads-for-Manhattan deals that Red pulled off b/c they were so lopsided and pull down a couple of banners in the process ? I didn't think so.

And given how Marc Gasol has been playing in Memphis for the last two years, the Gasol deal is nowhere near as lopsided as the media made it out to be. And nowhere near as lopsided as some of Red's best deals. Or to use a more recent example, how about the KG deal ?

Marc Gasol is a better player, and more durable, than Al Jefferson, so if Pau to LA was highway robbery, what was KG to the Celts ? With former Celtic HOFEr McHale pulling the trigger ? You want to talk about collusion ?

Me, I don't care. Danny's job is to get the best deals he can to make his team better. He got a great deal in the KG trade. So did the LAkers in the Gasol deal. It's called being better than the competition. There's a reason these two teams have combined to win over half of the championships in the history of the NBA.

Sky

Not kidding at all. In what alternate universe is Andrew Bynum even in the same stratosphere as Chris Bosh? At this point, we might as well offer Kendrick Perkins for Bosh then…as he is a MUCH more complete player than Bynum.

You can read all the Los Angeles hype you want, but many people around the NBA were unhappy with the Pau Gasol deal – and MANY PEOPLE questioned the integrity of the NBA in light of that move. If you want me to go and “google it” I am sure I can come back with 20+ articles that speak about the inequity in the deal.

Just this December, the LA Times spoke with Gregg Popovich about the deal and he said – “Pau Gasol changed the landscape of basketball in the NBA, as far as the west is concerned, and championship caliber basketball. He's a great player, perhaps the most versatile big man in the league right now, and it makes them really, really good."

Andy then asked him if the development of Pau's lil' bro in Memphis makes the deal perhaps a little less lopsided. Marc has, after all, become a very good NBA player down in Memphis, and is still very early in his career. Maybe, just maybe, it was a more equitable swap than he originally thought?

"Please," he said with a sarcastic eye roll. "Please."

The Celtics gave up A LOT of very talented young players in the KG deal (please tell me you are not trying to deny this either) – so again, apples and oranges.

I don’t really care in the big picture if teams like the Lakers want to break the bank to bring in free agents or over pay for mediocre bench players like Lamar Odom. But when the NBA is in charge of approving one lopsided trade after another in favor of a defending world champion, you have to wonder if they are asleep at the switch.

BSK

I think you are a bit premature on being critical of GYSO. He simply stated the trade of both 1 for 1 will not work, and it won't. (At least for this season)

So to make it work others have to be involved so then why the heck would Toronto want Sasha, or Farmar?

Think you are way off on this one...............keep dreaming and maybe Stern will allow it. Just like the Gasol giveaway.

beat

beat wrote:BSK

I think you are a bit premature on being critical of GYSO. He simply stated the trade of both 1 for 1 will not work, and it won't. (At least for this season)

So to make it work others have to be involved so then why the heck would Toronto want Sasha, or Farmar?

Think you are way off on this one...............keep dreaming and maybe Stern will allow it. Just like the Gasol giveaway.

beat

beat-

I think you misunderstood the tone of my post. My intention wasn't to be critical, and I didn't think the tone of the post was. I started it by saying "Gyso- You must have been busy at work or something, b/c I know you are way more cap-savvy than that." How is that being critical ? The first thing I said is that I know gyso is extremely savvy about the cap ?

I have way too much respect for Gyso and his knowledge of the CBA and cap/tax/trade issues to not be respectful towards him.

The part of Gyso's post that I was responding to was "So, don't worry, be happy. It can't happen until next season."

Well, the fact of the matter is they can be traded this season, as part of a bigger package. So there might be some cause for worry.

I was saying that gyso must have had something else going on and therefore didn't have the time to think it through to the next level of possibilities in terms of how a Bynum-Bosh swap could work this year. Because I know that Gyso knows the cap as well as anyone this side of Larry Coon, and that if he had given it further thought he would have realized this and said something more along the lines of "but they could be swapped this season as part of a bigger package of players.......".

Gyso is the last person on this board that I would be critical of, as he and I share a strong interest in the economic/ business aspect of the NBA, and like I said, I have a huge amount of respect for his knowledge in that area and of basketball in general. Gyso was also one of the first people to interact with me on the old site and I always liked our exchanges.

I try to approach everyone on this board with respect, because this board has a great tone of respectful, reasonable debate, as opposed to the childish nonsense over at BDC, which holds no appeal to me at all. And I 'm always well aware that this is a Celtics board and I am merely a visitor who is allowed to interact with you guys based on my own behavior, so I always try to be cognizant of that when I'm writing.

Bottom line: I wasn't being critical. Just showing that they absolutely could make that trade this year without much difficulty.

beat wrote:


So to make it work others have to be involved so then why the heck would Toronto want Sasha, or Farmar?

Think you are way off on this one...............keep dreaming and maybe Stern will allow it. Just like the Gasol giveaway.

beat

What giveaway exactly would Stern need to allow my friend ?

That Toronto would get a 22 year old legit 7', 285 lb center who averages 20, 12 and 2 blocks when Gasol isn't playing ?

Overall, he's at 15, 8.5 and 2, while only getting 11 shots a game. And he keeps getting better.

However, Bynum wants to be the man somewhere. He's not thrilled about being the third option, and he frankly doesn't play as hard when Pau is in the lineup b/c he doesn't get as many touches. This is typical for a young big man. BUt in Toronto he would be the clear # 1, so why wouldn't they want a guy who averages 20,12 and 2 (and plays solid D) when he is a primary focus ? He would also be a good fit next to Barngiani, who plays outside and is really more of a 4 than a 5.

As for the other players involved. Ammo and Farmar are expiring deals, although Farmar will be restricted, so if they liked what they saw from him in a half season, Toronto could retain him fairly easily. And good old Sasha ? Nothing but cap filler and an expiring deal next year, when he would have value as a trade chip b/c of his contract.

But if Toronto thinks they will lose Bosh for nothing, they certainly wouldn't hesitate to take on Sasha for a year to get Bynum.

if Toronto deals Bosh, and the LAkers decide to go after him with Bynum, LA would have all the leverage in the negotiation.

beat- let me ask you this. Assuming Bosh is going to leave, which everyone thinks will be the case, and that Toronto decides to trade him before the deadline, what better piece would realistically be available to them than Bynum ?

mrkleen09 wrote:

The Celtics gave up A LOT of very talented young players in the KG deal (please tell me you are not trying to deny this either) – so again, apples and oranges.

kleen-

Boston sent the Timberwolves:

Al Jefferson- solid player and a good scorer, but undersized, not athletic and not a good defender. He's not a franchise player

Ryan Gomes- decent role player, but nothing special

Gerald Green- a bust who can't shoot and is no longer in the NBA

Sebastian Telfair- a bust who can't shoot and is still in the NBA as a backup pg on the Clips

Theo Ratliff- a 34 year old injury prone big. He was cap filler.


So where exactly was all that talent ? Marc Gasol is more valuable than all of these guys.


If Minnesota got so much talent, why did they go 22-60 and 24-58 in the two years following their acquisition of ALL THAT young talent ?

mrkleen09 wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:After the totally lopsided Pau Gasol trade, if the NBA were allow this joke of a deal to go through - they should be investigated for collusion and unfair labor practices.

I wouldn't give you a bag of Chris Bosh' sneakers for Andrew Bynum.

Kleen-

you're kidding on both counts right ?

First, Bynum for Bosh would make a lot of sense for both teams. Bynum is a skilled young big- he is by far the best talent that will probably be realistically presented to the Raps for Bosh.

As for collusion, etc. Give me a break. Red made a living, and built the Celtics' dynasty, by routinely fleecing the other teams in the league. It's one of the reasons why he is the greatest executive in league history. Do you want to go back and undo some of the beads-for-Manhattan deals that Red pulled off b/c they were so lopsided and pull down a couple of banners in the process ? I didn't think so.

And given how Marc Gasol has been playing in Memphis for the last two years, the Gasol deal is nowhere near as lopsided as the media made it out to be. And nowhere near as lopsided as some of Red's best deals. Or to use a more recent example, how about the KG deal ?

Marc Gasol is a better player, and more durable, than Al Jefferson, so if Pau to LA was highway robbery, what was KG to the Celts ? With former Celtic HOFEr McHale pulling the trigger ? You want to talk about collusion ?

Me, I don't care. Danny's job is to get the best deals he can to make his team better. He got a great deal in the KG trade. So did the LAkers in the Gasol deal. It's called being better than the competition. There's a reason these two teams have combined to win over half of the championships in the history of the NBA.

Sky

Not kidding at all. In what alternate universe is Andrew Bynum even in the same stratosphere as Chris Bosh? At this point, we might as well offer Kendrick Perkins for Bosh then…as he is a MUCH more complete player than Bynum.

You can read all the Los Angeles hype you want, but many people around the NBA were unhappy with the Pau Gasol deal – and MANY PEOPLE questioned the integrity of the NBA in light of that move. If you want me to go and “google it” I am sure I can come back with 20+ articles that speak about the inequity in the deal.

Just this December, the LA Times spoke with Gregg Popovich about the deal and he said – “Pau Gasol changed the landscape of basketball in the NBA, as far as the west is concerned, and championship caliber basketball. He's a great player, perhaps the most versatile big man in the league right now, and it makes them really, really good."

Andy then asked him if the development of Pau's lil' bro in Memphis makes the deal perhaps a little less lopsided. Marc has, after all, become a very good NBA player down in Memphis, and is still very early in his career. Maybe, just maybe, it was a more equitable swap than he originally thought?

"Please," he said with a sarcastic eye roll. "Please."

The Celtics gave up A LOT of very talented young players in the KG deal (please tell me you are not trying to deny this either) – so again, apples and oranges.

I don’t really care in the big picture if teams like the Lakers want to break the bank to bring in free agents or over pay for mediocre bench players like Lamar Odom. But when the NBA is in charge of approving one lopsided trade after another in favor of a defending world champion, you have to wonder if they are asleep at the switch.

kleen-

as far as a Bynum's value, see my response to beat.

IF the Cs offered Perk, Toronto would have to seriously think about it. HEs got a better motor, is a better defender and has more of a mean streak (a good thing) than Bynum, but he's not as polished offensively and doesn't have BYnum's upside. HE's also 3 years older and is only under contract for one more year after this, as opposed to the having Bynum for three more years, so I think Bynum is still the way they would go.

You never responded to my point about the deals that Red made that built the Cs dynasty. He engineered one lopsided deal after another. It's called playing the game better than your competition.

As for the Pau deal, first of all, the Bulls were offered the Gasol deal and passed, as did some other teams that I can't recall, because they didn't want to take the lux tax hit. LA was willing to do it and they got him. So they didn't have an inside track. They were simply willing to take on a contract that other people weren't.

Just like Shaq to PHX. And Vince Carter to Orlando. And Shaq to Cleveland. And RJ to the Spurs. This is the new reality of the NBA. Most of the big deals are driven by economics- not by the talent being exchanged. Should the NBA investigate collusion in those cases also ?

And I'm well aware of Popovich's whining. I didn't see him calling for a "trade committee" to investigate their deal to get Jefferson for nothing this past summer. He's a bitter, hypocrite b/c LA beat the Spurs 4 of the 5 times they met in the playoffs in the last 10 years. I respect him greatly as a coach, but his incessant whining about the Gasol deal is pathetic.

Because when all is said and done, Memphis got a much better player back than the teams involved in any of those other deals (or the KG deal).

babyskyhook wrote:Because when all is said and done, Memphis got a much better player back than the teams involved in any of those other deals (or the KG deal).

Sky – you have GOT to be kidding.

Did you just try and tell us that Marc Gasol is a better player than Al Jefferson?

Sorry, but after reading that, the rest of your post is NULL and VOID and not worthy of a reply.

mrkleen - Sky didn't just say Marc Gasol was a better player than Al Jefferson, he said "a much better player."

Sky just lost it completely on this one. Too funny to respond.

beat

mrkleen09 wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:Because when all is said and done, Memphis got a much better player back than the teams involved in any of those other deals (or the KG deal).

Sky – you have GOT to be kidding.

Did you just try and tell us that Marc Gasol is a better player than Al Jefferson?

Sorry, but after reading that, the rest of your post is NULL and VOID and not worthy of a reply.

what's the matter Kleen ? Can't handle the truth ? Or do you not like to let the facts get in the way of a good debate ?


Al Jefferson: PER=18.94

YR TM G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS

09-10 MIN 37 37 33.5 7.5-15.6 .479 0.0-0.1 .000 2.8-4.1 .689 0.90 1.00 1.8 2.7 2.5 6.7 9.2 2.1 17.8


Marc Gasol: PER= 19.32

09-10 MEM 36 36 35.6 5.5-9.1 .607 0.0-0.0 .000 3.5-5.3 .663 0.90 1.50 2.2 3.6 2.9 6.6 9.5 2.2 14.5



They are on par in assists and rebounds. But Gasol is a much more efficient offensive player. He hits at a 61% rate from the field, while Jefferson is at 48%. He also gets to the line more often, and is scoring only 3 pts less per game despite Jefferson taking 60% more shots than Gasol.

Gasol is a much better defender because of his height, length and motor. He's a grinder on D. Jefferson has never been much on D. He's an undersized 5.


Tell me again why Jefferson is the better player ?


Answer- he's not. There's a reason that they are starting to shop Jefferson but no one is shopping marc gasol.


So instead of insulting me by saying "after reading that, the rest of your post is NULL and VOID and not worthy of a reply", why don't you man up and respond to the my posts (which are filled with facts) with some facts of your own instead of just evading them by being insulting and dismissive.

You've got have more game than that. Or do you just not have answers ?

sky - You compare Marc Gasol to Al Jefferson on this year's numbers when AJ is coming off a major injury and not 100% back yet. Compare either of his last two season's PER when he was healthy before you try and make the argument that Gasol is a much better player.

bhs,

Firstly, no worries. But, don't expect me to write an encyclopaedia every time there can be more to the story.

The initial post said (amongst the rambles),

"My source believes the Lakers will offer Andrew Bynum for Bosh (if they haven’t done so already) well before the deadline expires".

My post addressed that statement, and since no other players were mentioned, my reply was complete. I know that you know that I know the rest of the story:

It takes a village to trade for a BYC player!!

Your trade is legal, so far as RealGM is concerned. LA would LOVE IT!!!

Enough about that, there is something that I haven't seen mentioned in regards to the LA-Memphis Pau trade. Memphis recieved the rights to Marc Gasol. I think he was still playing in Europe at the time. Just like the Celtics have the rights to Semih Erdin.

Marc hadn't played in the NBA yet and was an unknown at the time. When the trade went down, there was no guarantee that Marc would ever play for Memphis. Now that we all have gotten a chance to see his game, the trade "fills in" a little more. At the time of the trade, it seemed quite hollow.

The trade needs to be discussed in the context of the when. When it went down, many spoke of it as highway robbery. Years later, after a throw-in piece to the transaction turned out to be a steady NBA big, it could be argued that it wasn't so one sided at all.

What if Marc had blown out his knee before he crossed the big water?

Hey, I was talking to a fly on the wall who was present during the Gasol's family reunion right after the trade went down. The fly said that Marc walked right up to Pau and punched him square in the chops.

gyso

babyskyhook wrote:So instead of insulting me by saying "after reading that, the rest of your post is NULL and VOID and not worthy of a reply", why don't you man up and respond to the my posts (which are filled with facts) with some facts of your own instead of just evading them by being insulting and dismissive.

You've got have more game than that. Or do you just not have answers ?

Steve did a pretty good job stating the obvious - so no need to do that again.

Second, if you have to use PER statistics to make your point, you are seriously reaching. According to ESPN's rankings using PER - Carl Landry and Kevin Love are higher than Dirk Nowitski and ANYONE on the Celitcs. Wow, talk about a bogus, fantasy basketball stat.

When healthy (last season) - Al Jefferson averaged 23 ppg and 11 rpg - Gasol averaged 14 ppg and 9 rpg - not even close.

Marc Gasol is a good young player who is getting better all the time, and in the long run he will be a good NBA player who has lots of upside. But right now, even with a bad knee and a terrible supporting cast - Al Jefferson is far and away the better player.

Al is a PF playing out of position at the 5,Al is a much better PF than Gasol is as a C.Bynum if he can stay healthy can be a serious force and playing with Bargnani as a 4 could actually be a better fit than Bosh-Bargnani,especially defensively.Bosh has a game similar to Pau Gasol with more mobility,however he can't stop anyone,just as I would prefer Perk-KG over Bosh-KG,even though Bosh is statistically the better player doesn't mean hes a better fit.....Bosh-Pau really dosen't scare me.

steve3344 wrote:sky - You compare Marc Gasol to Al Jefferson on this year's numbers when AJ is coming off a major injury and not 100% back yet. Compare either of his last two season's PER when he was healthy before you try and make the argument that Gasol is a much better player.

Steve: by that logic TMac and AI are still two of the best players in the game. BUt I hear where you're coming from.


So just to indulge you, here are Jefferson's two seasons where he put up his biggest numbers.


YR TM G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS

07-08 MIN 82 82 35.6 8.8-17.6 .500 0.0-0.1 .000 3.5-4.8 .721 0.90 1.50 2.0 2.7 3.8 7.4 11.2 1.4 21.0
08-09 MIN 50 50 36.7 9.7-19.5 .497 0.0-0.1 .000 3.7-5.0 .738 0.80 1.70 1.8 2.8 3.4 7.5 10.9 1.6 23.1


and here's Gasol's again:

09-10 MEM 37 37 35.6 5.6-9.2 .612 0.0-0.0 .000 3.5-5.3 .663 0.90 1.50 2.2 3.6 3.0 6.8 9.8 2.2 14.8


Notice anything ? All of the reasons I listed in the earlier post as to why Gasol is the better player are still true. He's much more efficient offensively and a much better defender. Their rebounds and assists are roughly the same. Jefferson was putting up 9 more ppg but it took him 10 more fga to get there.

If Gasol took the same number of shots that Jefferson was, he'd be averaging 30 ppg to Jefferson's 23 ppg.

And defensively, MInnesota was much worse when Jefferson was on the floor than when he was off it. The reverse is true for Marc Gasol.


I didn't originally post earlier years since Gasol has only been playing for two years in the NBA and Jefferson missed almost half the season with a blown ACL, so it seemed an unfair comparison, as he gave his team no production for 32 games.

But you are correct in terms of injuries do matter, and Jefferson's reconstructed ACL is yet another reason every GM in the league would take Marc Gasol over Jefferson.


Bottom line: Marc Gasol is much more efficient offensively and much better defensively, plus more durable and no injury history.

Oh yeah- he's also played well at the very highest levels of international competition, being an integral part of a team that won Gold at the world championships and gave team USA all it could handle in the Beijing olympics. What's the highest level of competition that Jefferson has been a part of ? He's never even taken a team to the playoffs in the NBA.


So on what basis are you guys making the claim that Jefferson is a better player ?

mrkleen09 wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:So instead of insulting me by saying "after reading that, the rest of your post is NULL and VOID and not worthy of a reply", why don't you man up and respond to the my posts (which are filled with facts) with some facts of your own instead of just evading them by being insulting and dismissive.

You've got have more game than that. Or do you just not have answers ?

Steve did a pretty good job stating the obvious - so no need to do that again.

Second, if you have to use PER statistics to make your point, you are seriously reaching. According to ESPN's rankings using PER - Carl Landry and Kevin Love are higher than Dirk Nowitski and ANYONE on the Celitcs. Wow, talk about a bogus, fantasy basketball stat.

When healthy (last season) - Al Jefferson averaged 23 ppg and 11 rpg - Gasol averaged 14 ppg and 9 rpg - not even close.

Marc Gasol is a good young player who is getting better all the time, and in the long run he will be a good NBA player who has lots of upside. But right now, even with a bad knee and a terrible supporting cast - Al Jefferson is far and away the better player.

Well Kleen, at least we agree on one thing- PER is an extremely flawed metric. I didn't even originally list it, but when I cut and pasted the stats in, the header column didn't line up with the numbers the way I wanted, so I thought people might have a hard time wading through the actual numbers. Hence, I put the PER up as a shorthand.

BUt you'll notice I didn't refer to it in my post. I used the actual stats and referred to their relative efficiency levels.

Because as every basketball fan knows, it's not about being a volume scorer. It's about efficiency.

But you seem enamored by Jefferson raw ppg numbers. So to use your 08-09 example (even though Jefferson missed 32 games):


Al Jefferson:

YR TM G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS

08-09 MIN 50 50 36.7 9.7-19.5 .497 0.0-0.1 .000 3.7-5.0 .738 0.80 1.70 1.8 2.8 3.4 7.5 10.9 1.6 23.1


Marc Gasol:

09-10 MEM 36 36 35.6 5.5-9.1 .607 0.0-0.0 .000 3.5-5.3 .663 0.90 1.50 2.2 3.6 2.9 6.6 9.5 2.2 14.5



As I just showed in my post to Steve, it doesn't matter which season you use for Jefferson, Gasol is a much more efficient offensive player. He hits at a 61% rate from the field, while Jefferson has been at between 48%- 50% the last three years, which are his highest scoring output years.

If Gasol was taking as many shots as Jefferson was in 08/09, he'd be averaging 30 ppg to Jefferson's 23 ppg. What was your phrase ? "It's not even close."



Gasol is a better offensive player as he is much more efficient. (He scored 24 points tonight on 14 shots for example. Jefferson would kill for that type of efficiency.)

Gasol is a much better defender than Jefferson.


So tell me again why Jefferson is the better player ?

gyso wrote:bhs,

Firstly, no worries. But, don't expect me to write an encyclopaedia every time there can be more to the story.

The initial post said (amongst the rambles),

"My source believes the Lakers will offer Andrew Bynum for Bosh (if they haven’t done so already) well before the deadline expires".

My post addressed that statement, and since no other players were mentioned, my reply was complete. I know that you know that I know the rest of the story:

It takes a village to trade for a BYC player!!

Your trade is legal, so far as RealGM is concerned. LA would LOVE IT!!!

Enough about that, there is something that I haven't seen mentioned in regards to the LA-Memphis Pau trade. Memphis recieved the rights to Marc Gasol. I think he was still playing in Europe at the time. Just like the Celtics have the rights to Semih Erdin.

Marc hadn't played in the NBA yet and was an unknown at the time. When the trade went down, there was no guarantee that Marc would ever play for Memphis. Now that we all have gotten a chance to see his game, the trade "fills in" a little more. At the time of the trade, it seemed quite hollow.

The trade needs to be discussed in the context of the when. When it went down, many spoke of it as highway robbery. Years later, after a throw-in piece to the transaction turned out to be a steady NBA big, it could be argued that it wasn't so one sided at all.

What if Marc had blown out his knee before he crossed the big water?

Hey, I was talking to a fly on the wall who was present during the Gasol's family reunion right after the trade went down. The fly said that Marc walked right up to Pau and punched him square in the chops.

gyso

gyso-

it's funny, I almost added "Plus, I know it's not your job to analyze the cap realities of every Laker trade rumor that makes it's way through the media." Should have done that when it was on my mind.

And I know that you know that I know that you know about this stuff (Abbot and Costello, anyone ?), which is why I led with the joking tone of "you must have been busy at work" or whatever I said.

I like the "It takes a village...". Something that probably only true deal/cap junkies like you and I appreciate, but well done.

As for your Marc Gasol question, he wasn't at all an unknown or a throw-in to the trade as the media made him out to be. He actually played his high school ball in Memphis, so they were very familiar with him. And he was on the Spanish team that won gold at the 2006 world championships, so he was definitely not an unknown. Was he a sure thing ? No. Is any young player ? No.

I'm not saying and never have said, that the Gasol deal was an equitable deal in a basketball sense. I've always said that the Gasol deal, like the Shaq-PHX, VC-Orlando, Shaq-Cleveland and RJ-Spurs was driven by economics. But it was never as one-sided as the media portrayed it because Marc Gasol was a legit prospect. Not a proven NBA commodity like Pau, but definitely a guy with real game.

But there has always seemed to be so much self-righteous hand-wringing on the part of some Cs fans that the Gasol deal was an evil, collusion, NBA-fixed deal where the Grizz got raped, but the KG trade was a wonderful win-win for both teams. And that's just not true.

Memphis got what every team looking to rebuild wants: cap relief, young players and draft picks.

MInnesota got the same thing, but the main player they got, isn't as good as the player Memphis got. And the rest of the package outside of Gomes was an absolute pupu platter.

The bottom line is that both LA and Boston took advantage of teams that had very little leverage (Memphis looking to shed salary and no other teams wanting to take salary back- Minny needing to get something for KG before he walked as an UFA and they got nothing).

As I said in my original post, "Me, I don't care. Danny's job is to get the best deals he can to make his team better. He got a great deal in the KG trade. So did the LAkers in the Gasol deal. It's called being better than the competition. There's a reason these two teams have combined to win over half of the championships in the history of the NBA."


But it makes me laugh when some Cs fans cry foul so vigorously that LA took advantage of Memphis. Do they not realize how Red built the Cs dynasty ?

He was the master of the lopsided deal. It's one of the reasons he was so great. Too funny, my friend.