Re: The Official Free Agents and Trades 2010 Offseason thread

[NYCelt]

Bob,

Can I answer neither of the above?

Thanks!

[gyso]

Shaq at 38 is WAY better than POB, Mikki or Kwame at any age. You could probably throw anybody still available and willing to sign for the VM into the end of that sentence as well - not better than Shaq. We aren't (and won't be for two years) a running team. We are a veteran slow methodical half-court team that used the fast break in an opportunistic manner. Shaq can initiate the fast break (like Perk) but I don't expect him to be filling the lane on a continuous basis on the fast break (like Perk).

Shaq will not be parked out at the 3-point line jacking up ill-advised threes to help spread the floor because nobody has to cover TA. Now with some of the bench shooters we have at the wing (Nate, Wafer, Bradley, Luke?) our backup center can prowl the paint more. That alone has to improve our rebounding and outside shooting as well.

Perk was better (pre-injury) on the defensive end than both O'Neals at this stage of their careers, but they are both better now than Perk on the other end (O). Even if Perk does come back by the 2011 playoffs, we will all be glad that the O'Neals are on board. There is no guarantee that Perk will come close to 100% by this time next year. Leon never did come back to be a member of the Cav's rotation last year. KG wasn't ready to go (NBA ready) until later towards June last season, if even then. KG will prove the nay-sayers of last year to be premature in their predictions of his demise this season. There is a huge difference in simply wearing a uniform and being NBA ready. Perk will be the former and not the latter, IMO, this season.

When (if?) Perk returns, we will have more talent at the 4 and 5 slot than we ever have during this current run (post KG). Pau will not be getting three or more O rebounds on a single possesion with these guys taking up space in the paint.

We were glad that the Cavs got Shaq because we had Perk to guard him one on one. Who out there can say the same? A handfull of teams or less, that's who. When other teams are forced to double on Shaq, that opens up our shooters.

Signing Shaq for the VM and saving Sheed's contract to provide a player to fill the one hole we have - big 3 backup for Pierce, is big!!! It is a win-win for us. The rest of the league, David Stern included, lose.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the subject, FWIW.

gyso

[NYCelt]

"Yes, the Celtics are going to have to redesign a couple of things because it's hard to ask a 38 year old, 350 pound behemoth to play the C's style of swarming D. That's just not gonna happen".

"Have fun redesigning what has worked for 3 years to accommodate an aging, enigmatic giant".

- These are two among my many big concerns as well. The more I look at it, the less I like it.

[mrkleen09]

mrkleen,

As far as him being a good locker room guy, I'd say that's true as long as he gets what he wants. He didn't like it when Kobe started to assert himself and he blew the Cleveland locker room apart last year when he started ahead of a few players.

Rebound-wise, he's just about as good now as his career average. Check out the /36 minutes of play numbers. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html. His scoring average is down, but that's because his fga are down. His rebounding per minute is still good and for a team that struggled on the boards last year, that's good for us. The bad news, of course, is that Shaq makes Perk look like Rick Barry at the free throw line.

Space eater, good. I just hope that's all he eats. He's even bigger now than when he was huge.

bob

.

Bob

Shaq in his Lakers days is ANCIENT history. He is a grown man now, with a championship of his own in Miami and a lot of personal ups and downs. There is no indication he was anything but a positive in the locker room in Cleveland last year....so to bring up his Lakers days is a real reach.

I dont care about his FT % - that is a minor point - especially for a part time player. His job is the clog up the middle, accumulate fouls on other teams big men, score 3 or 4 dunks a game, rebound and back up his teammates.

Celtics just became 100% tougher then they were last season. I would like to see Dwight Howard with his flailing elbows try and intimidate Shaq. Not gonna happen.

[mrkleen09]

By the way, to add to or clarify what I said earlier I actually like Harangody as a player. 3's notwithstanding I just think he and Davis are repeats of each other. That could be a good thing too, I suppose.

How can you say "3s notwithstanding" and then continue on with your argument? Harangody's outside shooting is a VITAL part of the argument in favor of him and why he is not at all like Glen Davis.

Thats like saying, other than that fact that the biggest part of their offensive games are different - they are the same player. Huh??

[bobheckler]

mrkleen,

As far as him being a good locker room guy, I'd say that's true as long as he gets what he wants. He didn't like it when Kobe started to assert himself and he blew the Cleveland locker room apart last year when he started ahead of a few players.

Rebound-wise, he's just about as good now as his career average. Check out the /36 minutes of play numbers. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html. His scoring average is down, but that's because his fga are down. His rebounding per minute is still good and for a team that struggled on the boards last year, that's good for us. The bad news, of course, is that Shaq makes Perk look like Rick Barry at the free throw line.

Space eater, good. I just hope that's all he eats. He's even bigger now than when he was huge.

bob

.

Bob

Shaq in his Lakers days is ANCIENT history. He is a grown man now, with a championship of his own in Miami and a lot of personal ups and downs. There is no indication he was anything but a positive in the locker room in Cleveland last year....so to bring up his Lakers days is a real reach.

I dont care about his FT % - that is a minor point - especially for a part time player. His job is the clog up the middle, accumulate fouls on other teams big men, score 3 or 4 dunks a game, rebound and back up his teammates.

Celtics just became 100% tougher then they were last season. I would like to see Dwight Howard with his flailing elbows try and intimidate Shaq. Not gonna happen.

mrkleen,

Ok, maybe bringing up the Laker days was a stretch, but the news about Cleveland is not. There was friction in the Cleveland locker room year due to Shaq's minutes.

bob

.

[Brandon$$]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIZVNG7LUis


Luke Harangody deserves some minutes off the bench. Doc doesn't play rookies but this guy can shoot the ball well and has a knack for scoring. Unorthodox, but he can score.

[Brandon$$]

And on a side note;

Source: Shaq’s talks with Cs still up in air

Contrary to recent reports, negotiations between the Celtics and Shaquille O’Neal are still far from resolution.

According to a league source, the NBA legend still appears to be balking at what the Celtics are willing to give - a one-year deal worth the veteran’s minimum of $1.39 million.

O’Neal, frustrated by a dwindling field of suiters that may only include the Celtics and possibly the Hawks at this point, is still attempting to get more money out of the Cs.

His only possibilities on that front would either be a second year - something Shaq openly covets - or a more lucrative sign-and-trade arrangement between the Celtics and Cleveland that would send the retiring Rasheed Wallace’s $6 million salary slot to the Cavs.

As of now, that conversation reportedly hasn’t taken place between the two teams.


http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/celtics/index.php/2010/08/04/source-shaqs-talks-with-cs-still-up-in-air/

[gyso]

mrkleen,

As far as him being a good locker room guy, I'd say that's true as long as he gets what he wants. He didn't like it when Kobe started to assert himself and he blew the Cleveland locker room apart last year when he started ahead of a few players.

Rebound-wise, he's just about as good now as his career average. Check out the /36 minutes of play numbers. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html. His scoring average is down, but that's because his fga are down. His rebounding per minute is still good and for a team that struggled on the boards last year, that's good for us. The bad news, of course, is that Shaq makes Perk look like Rick Barry at the free throw line.

Space eater, good. I just hope that's all he eats. He's even bigger now than when he was huge.

bob

.

Bob

Shaq in his Lakers days is ANCIENT history. He is a grown man now, with a championship of his own in Miami and a lot of personal ups and downs. There is no indication he was anything but a positive in the locker room in Cleveland last year....so to bring up his Lakers days is a real reach.

I dont care about his FT % - that is a minor point - especially for a part time player. His job is the clog up the middle, accumulate fouls on other teams big men, score 3 or 4 dunks a game, rebound and back up his teammates.

Celtics just became 100% tougher then they were last season. I would like to see Dwight Howard with his flailing elbows try and intimidate Shaq. Not gonna happen.

mrkleen,

Ok, maybe bringing up the Laker days was a stretch, but the news about Cleveland is not. There was friction in the Cleveland locker room year due to Shaq's minutes.

bob

.

bob,

Was this friction due to a coach's decision on playing time after Z's returned from his 30 day vacation? I haven't read or seen anything to say otherwise.

To blame Shaq for the friction is wrong in that case.

gyso

[Outside]

Gyso, for the C's sake, I hope you're right about Shaq's value. You make a compelling case. I haven't seen Shaq as a good fit up to now, but assuming he willingly accepts the backup job, he looks better than the alternatives of the various unproven or retread players out there. If the choice is between getting whacked with a stick or shot, getting whacked with a stick looks pretty good.

As for the chemistry issue, my recollection is that he has left every team on poor terms to some degree, but I suppose it's a relatively low risk if he has a one-year contract.

Outside

[jeb]

brandonbanks

BIGGIE!

[gyso]

Outside,

The problem with some people accepting Shaq as a Celtic may be because, "he doesn't fit into how we have done it since KG arrived." The old, "That's how we always did it" argument.

As in, "He won't be able to cover on the pick and roll defense". I really don't remenber that we did that all that well, at least the high pick and roll. I remember comments made on the Game On threads that said that particular play was our worst nightmare.

It is the coach's job to make the modifications required to meld a new player into the system. Perhaps we lose a little on one end (D) but more than make up for it on the other end (O).

That would be a net gain and would help create more wins than losses.

The "chemistry issue" depends a lot on the individual's personal bent. For me, I don't see it as an recent issue.

1. Orlando was mad because he left for a better funded team. Of course they are mad at him for leaving.
2. Lakers were forced to get rid of him because of Kobe. Perhaps one of the Laker fans could elaborate on this.
3. The Heat traded him because Wade was hurt and Shaq was too expensive while they waited for Wade to get back on the court.
4. The Suns were just a bad fit and it took a couple years for them to understand it.
5. The Cavs may have worked, but James quit on them.

That list may be too simplistic and maybe my recollection of the history is not exactly correct.

gyso

[pete]

My 2 cents. Big men are hard to come by. This fills a need, we give up very little. Off the bench, perfect! I can't see any downside. The Celts are not going to change their style for him in any way.

Good move I say.

Pete

[NYCelt]

And on a side note;

Source: Shaq’s talks with Cs still up in air

Contrary to recent reports, negotiations between the Celtics and Shaquille O’Neal are still far from resolution.

According to a league source, the NBA legend still appears to be balking at what the Celtics are willing to give - a one-year deal worth the veteran’s minimum of $1.39 million.

O’Neal, frustrated by a dwindling field of suiters that may only include the Celtics and possibly the Hawks at this point, is still attempting to get more money out of the Cs.

His only possibilities on that front would either be a second year - something Shaq openly covets - or a more lucrative sign-and-trade arrangement between the Celtics and Cleveland that would send the retiring Rasheed Wallace’s $6 million salary slot to the Cavs.

As of now, that conversation reportedly hasn’t taken place between the two teams.


http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/celtics/index.php/2010/08/04/source-shaqs-talks-with-cs-still-up-in-air/

There may still be a chance to look at other solutions. I hope we do.

Link to a different op-ed story from Ball Don't Lie. I must admit their opinion of Shaq at this stage in his career is better than mine.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Shaquille-O-Neal-a-Celtic-;_ylt=AgvzSAk1Aqpc9t1p6.SJcuC8vLYF?urn=nba-260187

[mrkleen09]

NY

Name one available big man that is better than Shaq

[sinus007]

NYCelt,
I would not put too much trust on that "Ball don't lie" blog. As it happens, it's the second article by that Dwyer guy in 2 days where he bashes Shaq. So, it looks more like some personal thing than an opinion based on solid arguments. I bet that some people here could've written a better op-ed, on either side.
As I stated previously, I'm not decided on the Shaq move, yet. But one thing I 100% agree with he is the best acquisition for the money, VM that is.

AK

[worcester]

Enough with the Shaq is disruptive to team chemistry line of reasoning. When Shaq was in Orlando, the previously last place team made it to the NBA finals. We loved him here in Florida and only hated him when he left. Ditto when he went to the Lakers and then Heat where he turned mediocre teams into NBA champs. How disruptive could Shaq have been if he was MVP and his teams won the O'Brien Trophy? As for Cleveland, I doubt that he was more disruptive than Delonte, who - according to Calvin Murphy (someone quite reluctant to bear false witness against others considering his own hellish ordeal with his ex-wife and daughter) - had an affair with LeBron's mother, which LeBron found out about during the series against Boston. Now that's disruptive!

[gyso]

Shaq is officially signed, so if anyone wants to start a "Official" thread on Shaq so the discussion can continue, feel free.

http://www.nba.com/celtics/news/press_release/press080410-celtics-sign-shaq.html

[gyso]

Enough with the Shaq is disruptive to team chemistry line of reasoning. When Shaq was in Orlando, the previously last place team made it to the NBA finals. We loved him here in Florida and only hated him when he left. Ditto when he went to the Lakers and then Heat where he turned mediocre teams into NBA champs. How disruptive could Shaq have been if he was MVP and his teams won the O'Brien Trophy? As for Cleveland, I doubt that he was more disruptive than Delonte, who - according to Calvin Murphy (someone quite reluctant to bear false witness against others considering his own hellish ordeal with his ex-wife and daughter) - had an affair with LeBron's mother, which LeBron found out about during the series against Boston. Now that's disruptive!

Worcester,

It is ironic that many press for the return of Delonte, yet don't want Shaq in green.

gyso

[tjmakz]

Below is an article from when Shaq was being traded from Phoenix.
Here is the key quote of the article:

'The problem isn't a personality clash. It's that Nash and O'Neal can't co-exist on the court. You could not piece together a worse combination to defend the pick-and-roll, one of the most elementary plays in the NBA.'


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2009/06/18/20090618bickley0619.html

[mrkleen09]

TJ

Are you trying to compare the Phoenix Suns offense with the Boston Celtics offense?

[tjmakz]

mr. kleen,

I'm not comparing anything.
The quote was talking about defense, not offense.

In my opinion, Shaq doesn't make them significantly worse or better.
If I was a Celtics fan, I would rather see Boston sign an athletic big man like Lou Amundsen or to try to trade for a player like Chris Anderson of Denver or Anderson Varejo of Cleveland.

Boston is loaded with unathletic big men. (Perk, JO, Shaq, BBD, Rasheed).
Their two small forwards that will get most of the playing time (Pierce and Harangody) also have beow average athleticism.

Their guards are very fast and athletic but they don't have a big man that brings a significantly different look for defenses.

[tjmakz]

It looks like Shannon Brown will re-sign with L.A.
If this happens, they just need to sign Ebanks and Caracter and they will be ready to defend their title.

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/knicksblog/knicks_target_brown_likely_staying_kd2zx71UnixSAcR2NuZC8M

[mrkleen09]

mr. kleen,

I'm not comparing anything.
The quote was talking about defense, not offense.

In my opinion, Shaq doesn't make them significantly worse or better.
If I was a Celtics fan, I would rather see Boston sign an athletic big man like Lou Amundsen or to try to trade for a player like Chris Anderson of Denver or Anderson Varejo of Cleveland.

Boston is loaded with unathletic big men. (Perk, JO, Shaq, BBD, Rasheed).
Their two small forwards that will get most of the playing time (Pierce and Harangody) also have beow average athleticism.

Their guards are very fast and athletic but they don't have a big man that brings a significantly different look for defenses.

The Celtics will have a better defender at every position vs. Phoenix...so even if Shaq is a disaster on pick and rolls....it is comparing apples and oranges to use Phoenix as an example.

The rest is pretty amusing. Paul Pierce is unathletic - and Lou Amundsen would be better coming off the bench than Shaq....Yeah, ok.

[Outside]

Gyso,

One way to look at Shaq's value is whether his advantages (scoring, drawing defensive attention and fouls, rebounding) outweigh his disadvantages (lack of mobility on defense, clogging the interior on offense, poor foul shooting). I initially thought that the negative side of the ledger carried a little more weight than the positive, but I can be swayed to accept that his positives outweigh his negatives. Rasheed performed better than I thought he would last year, particularly in the playoffs, and maybe Shaq will do the same.

Another way to evaluate Shaq's value is to compare his skillset to what the Celtics need in a backup center (which I thought would primarily be defense and rebounding with scoring as a bonus). I based my initial opinion more on that, and my opinion was that he doesn't fit well there. It's not just the high pick-and-roll, but more significantly in my mind, general athleticism and mobility on defense. He's smart, which can make up somewhat for the lack of mobility, but it's key to the Celtics' defense to have players who rotate and help promptly, and that's my biggest area of concern. It's hard for me to shake images of players blowing by him last year as if he were nailed to the floor.

I think what has caused me to reconsider the situation the most is a third method of evaluation, which is comparing Shaq to anyone else that the Celtics might realistically get. There's just not much out there to be had at the veterans' minimum, and Shaq is better than anyone available at this point. He's certainly better than Erden. With that in mind, it's a good signing.

As for his effect on chemistry or the locker room, I'll drop any mention of that since a) none of us really knows what goes on there; and b) I'm too lazy to research past articles on the subject, most of which would be based on hearsay anyway.

Outside

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