Re: The Official Free Agents and Trades 2010 Offseason thread

[sinus007]

Outside,
Thank you very much for your concise and methodical analysis.
Now we'll see if his positive package outweighs (is it a pun?) his negative one. Also, I hope his one motivated mo-fo.

AK

[Sam]

TJ,

So Pierce and Harangody will get most of the playing time at the "3," huh? Harangody hasn't even been proven to be a "3" (although it would be nice), and Daniels and Von Wafer are very likely to be the backup "3" and "2" respectively‚ at least for the foreseeable future.

And there really is a lot more than athleticism to basketball. Just ask the Hawks. But I'm actually looking forward to some serious uptempo ball from the Celtics' second unit, with Shaq and Davis rebounding and outletting and Quis, Von and Nate hustling downcourt with the other two as trailers.

Sam

[tjmakz]

Sam,

Is Harangody going to be a power forward in the NBA? He is 6'6" without shoes and we know he is not a leaper. He will get destroyed by power forwards in the NBA. If I am wrong, you tell me where he plays.
Athleticism is extremely important in the NBA. The Hawks have some athleticism but not enough good players.
Be careful what you wish for with Quis, Wafer and Nate, etc.
Much better players are sitting on the bench if they are in the game.
Boston's bigs aren't athletic, but to make matters worse, Perkins and Shaq are terrible shooters and aren't threats from outside of 5-7 feet. If Boston had unathletic guys like Brad Miller or Memhet Okur, at least they can open up the offense with their outside shooting.

[NYCelt]

mr. kleen,

I'm not comparing anything.
The quote was talking about defense, not offense.

In my opinion, Shaq doesn't make them significantly worse or better.
If I was a Celtics fan, I would rather see Boston sign an athletic big man like Lou Amundsen or to try to trade for a player like Chris Anderson of Denver or Anderson Varejo of Cleveland.

Boston is loaded with unathletic big men. (Perk, JO, Shaq, BBD, Rasheed).
Their two small forwards that will get most of the playing time (Pierce and Harangody) also have beow average athleticism.

Their guards are very fast and athletic but they don't have a big man that brings a significantly different look for defenses.

I'm with you on this one tj.

In my opinion your guys are making the right moves this off-season and we're taking the big gambles.

Ah well, sometimes you find snakes in your garden; you don't want them there but you figure just maybe they will eat a few mosquitoes (that one is as close to a "Jebism" as I could come).

Regards

[NYCelt]

Sam,

Is Harangody going to be a power forward in the NBA? He is 6'6" without shoes and we know he is not a leaper. He will get destroyed by power forwards in the NBA. If I am wrong, you tell me where he plays.
Athleticism is extremely important in the NBA. The Hawks have some athleticism but not enough good players.
Be careful what you wish for with Quis, Wafer and Nate, etc.
Much better players are sitting on the bench if they are in the game.
Boston's bigs aren't athletic, but to make matters worse, Perkins and Shaq are terrible shooters and aren't threats from outside of 5-7 feet. If Boston had unathletic guys like Brad Miller or Memhet Okur, at least they can open up the offense with their outside shooting.

tj,

Sam's right, as usual; this time about Harangody. He's a 4.

Kind of gets annoying doesn't it; saying Sam's right all the time. Kind of like playing with that single digit handicapper..."nice shot, nice shot, nice shot, can you draw it like that with your four iron all the time? Nice Shot, real nice shot... (Note to Sam; OK, it's a "left-handed" compliment!)

Apart from that I'm agreeing with you once again. With no insult intended to my Celtic buddies, I think you have summed up the state of our roster in the most realistic terms I've seen. I still think we're going to make some serious noise again this year, but I think we're settling with the overall composition of the team and it will be a bigger challenge this year than last.

Of course I still bleed Celtic Green so please don't think I'm going out and buying a lot of purple and gold clothing because I'm agreeing so often with one of our resident friendly opposition!

Regards

[tjmakz]

Even if Harangody is a power forward, how many minutes is he going to play with Garnett and BBD?
So, is Daniels the only back up for Pierce? He was in the doghouse much of last year when he wasn't hurt.

[mrkleen09]

TJ

Who said Harangody even makes the team? He very well may be in the NBDL most of the year. I dont even see what your point is.

At the PF position, the Celtics have KG, Davis, and some nights Jermaine O'Neil, and possibly Rasheed Wallace. Sounds a lot more solid than the Lakers PF position.

[NYCelt]

tj,

I'm not sure if that was addressed to Sam or me, but I'll give my answer if I may.

Regarding Harangody, I expect him to get limited time and probably little to none with KG and Davis. That would give us too slow and small of a lineup in most situations.

Daniels and to a very limited degree Wafer appear to be it behind Pierce. Of course Allen can play the three as well, although there is the little matter of him being our starting 2. I put Daniels on my list of concerns along with Wafer and Shaq. Not the best looking bench. We're counting on a lot of "ifs" falling our way this year. "If" they do, Ainge will get exec of the year again.

I see myself pulling a lot of hairs out during games this year; wonder if I can just get the gray ones?

[NYCelt]

Kleen,

True, KG and Davis are a very good combo at PF.

To be fair, we at least need to consider that the Lakers starting PF is possibly the best at his position in the game right now.

Regards

[Outside]

The most valuable free agent signing for the Celtics was Doc. He's the one that can turn a team with a fair share of question marks into a championship contender.

[mrkleen09]

Kleen,

True, KG and Davis are a very good combo at PF.

To be fair, we at least need to consider that the Lakers starting PF is possibly the best at his position in the game right now.

Regards

Not sure what Gasol or the Lakers have to do with evaluating the Celtics depth at PF at the moment, but lets play along for a moment. Gasol is better at this point than KG. Not by a lot, but by a small measure I will give you that. If Davis raises his game a bit this year (which he has done every year in the off season), he is on par with Odom. After that, who do the Lakers have? Celtics have Jermaine O'Neil and either Rasheed Wallace or someone yet TBD with Sheed's money.

Seems to me like the Celtics are = or better overall at PF than the Lakers...and that is without even seeing how it all plays out.

[cowens/oldschool]

Sams not right on everything and I love Sam and agree with mostly everything he says,however if Harangody can beat out Quis for backup 3 that will make us a better team.Harangody may not be a classic 3,but he can shoot with range and may be able to score at this level too,he can help us at the 3 and has enough of a skill set to play there.

[Outside]

Harangody is a classic "tweener" -- too short for a 4, too slow for a 3 -- but his liabilities are more severe at the 3. Yes, he has shown shooting range and scoring ability in summer league, but how on earth is he going to guard an NBA small forward? Between a jab step - shot over him and upfake - drive around him, he'll get torched. At the 4, he can at least push an opponent out of position and use his toughness and tenacity to bother bigger players.

Daniels is a much better candidate to be a backup 3, especially defensively. The only apparent advantages Harangody has are shooting range and rebounding. Those are great assets, but Daniels has the advantage in everything else -- ballhandling, transition game, defensive position, steals, knowledge of the system, experience.

Playing on a unit with Nate, Wafer, Davis, and Shaq, how much do you really need the small forward to shoot? What you need is a defender at that position (like Tony Allen), and Daniels can fit that role. Harangody can't.

That's not to say that I don't like Harangody, because I do (at the 4, not the 3). A guy with strength, desire, and a nose for the ball can have a significant impact, like DuJuan Blair in San Antonio last year. As I believe others have pointed out, the problem is that the Celtics already have a "tweener" in Glenn Davis, and two seems like one too many. There's a lot to like about Harangody, but he seems like an odd draft pick unless they plan on moving Davis or using Harangody as trade bait. If he winds up unsigned, then it's an odd pick indeed.

Outside

[tjmakz]

Kleen,

True, KG and Davis are a very good combo at PF.

To be fair, we at least need to consider that the Lakers starting PF is possibly the best at his position in the game right now.

Regards

Not sure what Gasol or the Lakers have to do with evaluating the Celtics depth at PF at the moment, but lets play along for a moment. Gasol is better at this point than KG. Not by a lot, but by a small measure I will give you that. If Davis raises his game a bit this year (which he has done every year in the off season), he is on par with Odom. After that, who do the Lakers have? Celtics have Jermaine O'Neil and either Rasheed Wallace or someone yet TBD with Sheed's money.

Seems to me like the Celtics are = or better overall at PF than the Lakers...and that is without even seeing how it all plays out.

kleen,

You were the one that brought up the Lakers PF position.
So, would you rather have KG and Davis or Gasol and Odom on the Celtics?
I bet most Celtics fans would pick Gasol and Odom.
I disagree with your opinion that Gasol is only a small measure better then Garnett.
The 3rd PF player doesn't mean a whole lot. How did LA do with Josh Powell? They won back to back championships with him.
I for one think Caracter has a chance at being a solid NBA player. (Power forward).
He is 6'9" 270 and showed he can hit a 15 ft foot shot. He held his own against Cousins in Summer League.

[bobheckler]

Harangody is a classic "tweener" -- too short for a 4, too slow for a 3 -- but his liabilities are more severe at the 3. Yes, he has shown shooting range and scoring ability in summer league, but how on earth is he going to guard an NBA small forward? Between a jab step - shot over him and upfake - drive around him, he'll get torched. At the 4, he can at least push an opponent out of position and use his toughness and tenacity to bother bigger players.

Daniels is a much better candidate to be a backup 3, especially defensively. The only apparent advantages Harangody has are shooting range and rebounding. Those are great assets, but Daniels has the advantage in everything else -- ballhandling, transition game, defensive position, steals, knowledge of the system, experience.

Playing on a unit with Nate, Wafer, Davis, and Shaq, how much do you really need the small forward to shoot? What you need is a defender at that position (like Tony Allen), and Daniels can fit that role. Harangody can't.

That's not to say that I don't like Harangody, because I do (at the 4, not the 3). A guy with strength, desire, and a nose for the ball can have a significant impact, like DuJuan Blair in San Antonio last year. As I believe others have pointed out, the problem is that the Celtics already have a "tweener" in Glenn Davis, and two seems like one too many. There's a lot to like about Harangody, but he seems like an odd draft pick unless they plan on moving Davis or using Harangody as trade bait. If he winds up unsigned, then it's an odd pick indeed.

Outside

outside,

Good analysis, as usual.

bob

.

[mrkleen09]

kleen,

You were the one that brought up the Lakers PF position.
So, would you rather have KG and Davis or Gasol and Odom on the Celtics?
I bet most Celtics fans would pick Gasol and Odom.
I disagree with your opinion that Gasol is only a small measure better then Garnett.
The 3rd PF player doesn't mean a whole lot. How did LA do with Josh Powell? They won back to back championships with him.
I for one think Caracter has a chance at being a solid NBA player. (Power forward).
He is 6'9" 270 and showed he can hit a 15 ft foot shot. He held his own against Cousins in Summer League.

Good thing we dont send out one position at a time TJ....as you are right, the Lakers top 2 PF are better than the Celtics top 2 - at least at this point. Big Baby could every easily overtake the wildly inconsistent Odom - but that hasnt happened yet.

The bottom like is that if the Celtics had Jermaine O'Neil or Shaq to fill in for Perk in Game 7 - the outcome would have been different.

[jeb]

With good health we will get the chance to show that. I cant wait.

[tjmakz]

kleen,

Are you now going to divert this conversation to "if you had players who played for other teams the outcome of Game 7 would have been different'?

Odom is considered inconsistent because so much is expected of him.
BBD averaged 6 pts and less then 4 rebs last year.
Talk about inconsistent, how about BBD's games 5-7 of the finals when he had a total of 6 points in the 3 games. BBD has made the most out of his ability.

LA is a much better team this year with the addition of Steve Blake.
Add to that the signing of Barnes and the drafting of Ebanks and Caracter which makes LA a better and deeper team then last year.

[bobheckler]

The Celtics (and Bobcats) are allegedly interested in Larry Hughes.

I hope not. Never liked him.

Makes poor shooting decisions. Not high basketball IQ.

bob

.

[mrkleen09]

TJ - Once again, we come to the same point....you see things through yellow tinted glasses, I see them through green.

I think the Celtics are greatly improved at key spots where they showed vulnerability - and with Sheed's money still on the table, they are not done adding pieces. I am not worried about the Lakers. Matt Barnes never shows up in big games - Steve Blake is a mediocre pg with limited offensive skills - and Bynum has yet to show he can stay healthy.

Enjoy the off season.

[NYCelt]

Harangody is a classic "tweener" -- too short for a 4, too slow for a 3 -- but his liabilities are more severe at the 3. Yes, he has shown shooting range and scoring ability in summer league, but how on earth is he going to guard an NBA small forward? Between a jab step - shot over him and upfake - drive around him, he'll get torched. At the 4, he can at least push an opponent out of position and use his toughness and tenacity to bother bigger players.

Daniels is a much better candidate to be a backup 3, especially defensively. The only apparent advantages Harangody has are shooting range and rebounding. Those are great assets, but Daniels has the advantage in everything else -- ballhandling, transition game, defensive position, steals, knowledge of the system, experience.

Playing on a unit with Nate, Wafer, Davis, and Shaq, how much do you really need the small forward to shoot? What you need is a defender at that position (like Tony Allen), and Daniels can fit that role. Harangody can't.

That's not to say that I don't like Harangody, because I do (at the 4, not the 3). A guy with strength, desire, and a nose for the ball can have a significant impact, like DuJuan Blair in San Antonio last year. As I believe others have pointed out, the problem is that the Celtics already have a "tweener" in Glenn Davis, and two seems like one too many. There's a lot to like about Harangody, but he seems like an odd draft pick unless they plan on moving Davis or using Harangody as trade bait. If he winds up unsigned, then it's an odd pick indeed.

Outside

Outside,

Thank you for putting this in better terms than I ever could approach.

I've been trying to explain this to those that think he's going to be a three in various threads over the past week or so when the subject comes up and I've failed to find the right words; but you've nailed it.

Great, detailed and understandable take on this player his position and place.

Regards

[Sam]

Gee, TJ, I actually like my center to be near the basket where he can compete for rebounds. Perhaps you like to count on your centers to space the floor and bomb away from outside, but the center position is the last one I'd pick for that purpose.

The Celtics' center in 2007-08 didn't have the athleticism you value so highly. Let's see, how did that team do? How about the Celtics of the 80s? Who were their athletic standouts when they won their three championships?

Basketball doesn't have a formula. If you have non-athletic big guys on your team, you adopt a style that minimizes their deficiencies and maximizes the use of their strengths. For some teams, that means crashing the boards so ferociously that the opponent can't use its athleticism to best advantage, such as by sneaking away during rebounding action. Athleticism is not nearly as all-important as you think it is. It's nice to have, but spare me the team that depends so much on its athleticism that the fundamentals of the game take a back seat.

Simply stating that a team has no athletic big men means absolutely less than nothing. Here's a little maxim for you. In this day of dominance by the CBA, it's not possible to put together the perfect team. The idea is to make the most of what you DO have and minimize the negative impact of what you do NOT have.

And, by the way, if you really think the Celtics have no athletic big men, then KG must have shrunk! He's old, and yet he can still beat any big man the Lakers have down the floor for an alley oop and slam. Seems pretty athletic to me.

And what's with changing the topic in midstream when your backup assumption about Harangody was described as erroneous? Look back at my post. My point was not so much what position Harangody might play but the pure and simple fact that he's not likely to be the first choice backup at any position (unless something unforeseen occurs). All that stuff about whether he'll be a PF had nothing to do with my response or, for that matter, your earlier comment.

I agree that no one under 6' 8" could possibly be a PF, no matter what potentially compensating skills he might have. I think I once heard Charles Barkley say something to that effect. And no, the hackneyed old literal comeback about whether I'm comparing Barkley and Harangody won't work either. I'm simply citing an example, not a direct comparison. In talking about height requirements for a given position, I could have stated another example such as the fact that the team with the most NBA championships has won 14 of their 17 championships with centers below 6" 11 (in fact, mostly 6' 9")."

I have no idea what the heck you mean in your comment that, if Quis, Von and Nate are in the game, much better players will be sitting on the bench. Yes, that's the way it works. When the players who usually are on the bench are temporarily on the floor, better players (aka the starters) are temporarily on the bench. I have absolutely no idea what point you were trying to make with that one.

Sam

[bobheckler]

Sam,

Russ was listed at 6'9 1/2", but as you know that was in barefeet.

Dwight Howard is listed at 6'9" in barefeet. http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dwight-Howard-2888/

I'm not disputing your overall assertions. In fact, I agree that athleticism is overrated in NBA players. David Lee is a good example of how athletically-challenged players can still get the job done. Gerald Green, Larry Hughes and a boatload of others are examples of how athleticism is not the difference maker. Basketball IQ is the factor that separates the men from the boys (or, should I say, the NBA-ballers from the D-leaguers). Gerald Green is now the LeBron James of Krasnodar, Russia (a city about 50 miles from the eastern shore of the Black Sea). Never heard of it? Neither did I, but apparently it's where extremely athletic NBA-hopefuls with no basketball IQ go to die.

I'm just pointing out how people routinely don't give Russ enough credit for size. He was athletic, could run and jump like a deer, had a basketball IQ that was off the charts and is taller than people think.

bob

.

[tjmakz]

Sam,

If Boston would have signed a big man that was a real good outside shooter, I would expect for you to write paragraphs about how important it is for a big man to be able to hit outside shots to open up the offense especially when a team has a dribble-penetration guard like Rondo...

The problem with the athleticism is, Boston's core is showing the signs of losing athleticism (Pierce and Garnett) and Boston lost their best wing defender (TA). Who is going to defend LeBron/Wade/Bosh and Miller for 48 minutes?

In the 80's Boston didn't need to be the most athletic team because 4 of their starters were future hall of famers and one of them is one of the top 10 players of all time.

If you think Harangody is an NBA power forward, then I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I look forward to Doc giving him significant minutes at the 4 position.

My point about Wafer, Quis and Nate is that these are journeymen and when they are in the game, MUCH better players are sitting. They will not produce anywhere near the way the starters do.

[sinus007]

snip
Boston's core is showing the signs of losing athleticism (Pierce and Garnett)

True

and Boston lost their best wing defender (TA)

True but what Celtics lost on D-end they may gain on O-end.

Who is going to defend LeBron/Wade/Bosh and Miller for 48 minutes?

I doubt they'll play for 48 minutes. But when they're on the floor - RR, RA, PP, KG and JON (Shaq) all together

My point about Wafer, Quis and Nate is that these are journeymen and when they are in the game, MUCH better players are sitting.

True, but the opposing team has to rest their starters, too.

just my $.02
AK

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