Trade Talk

cowens/oldschool wrote:Dboss I agree there are some players to be had in this draft, but if GH stays and we still have a hopefully healthy Romeo, plus the versatility of Smart I think that’s enough wings. I gotta go best available 4-5 first at 14 before I go wing or point.

If we have both Hayward and Langford next season, I'll agree we need to go big man with the top draft pick and I would also use the MLE for a big man as well.

Look, Theis is better suited as a rotational big, Grant and Robert  are backups only and no one else on the likely roster is even back up material. ( I assume Kanter moves on).

so we need TWO real NBA  Rotational big men to improve next season OR one quality starter.

we are not likely to get a starter at #14 in the draft or with the $5M MLE, IMO

Theis anchored the 4th best defense in the league but had one bad series against Bam (which I blame on poor perimeter defense, which often starts with the wing/back court player not fighting over picks aggressively enough. If you don't keep trailing your man around the pick you won't force your big (e.g. Theis) to step up to prevent the curl over the pick, letting Bam roll to the rim, but that's just my perspective) and now he's a loser.

Do we need a big? Yes. Kanter may be going and even if he isn't he is an extremely poor pnr defender. The Time Lord has had enough time to learn how to rotate swiftly and not bite on every head fake thrown at him. Has he had enough time to be expected to show that development in a game?

Theis isn't our problem at big, in my opinion. Kanter's lack of defense was. Sure, he was indominable on the offensive boards but he gave up SO many points with his flat-out awful defense. We need a brute who can play defense, not just offense. We need Baynes (or someone like him). Baynes doesn't need to start, he just needs Kanter's minutes and maybe a few more. He needs to play the Embiids and ADs of the league.


Bob


.

Just to be clear I never said Theis was a bad player or a loser. He is an over achiever who gives all he has, but he is still a 6-8 NBA player.

I don't think you can win a championship with him as your main big man, perhaps I will be proven wrong.

yes a replacement for Kanter is what we likely get this off-season, will that player move the needle enough is the question.

I still think we need two upgrades at big, unless Ainge can somehow get an upgrade over Theis.

We could use a good big man coach, RWill has the attributes, we have to develop him much further. I would still like a physical PF type that can post and board and wreak havoc inside, like what I see on film from Precious and Stewart.

kdp59 wrote:Just to be clear I never said Theis was a bad player or a loser. He is an over achiever who gives all he has, but he is still a 6-8 NBA player.

I don't think you can win a championship with him as your main big man, perhaps I will be proven wrong.

yes a replacement for Kanter is what we likely get this off-season, will that player move the needle enough is the question.

I still think we need two  upgrades at big, unless Ainge can somehow get an upgrade over Theis.

In this era with so much outside shooting and pnr, Theis does a great job, it’s obviously the skilled 7 footers he has trouble with. We have to get more from RWill.

When Cowens mentioned the the Cs need a quality big man coach, I immediately wondered why don't the Cs have such a guy? How many teams have a big man coach?

Even with the league's big men shooting more longer shots than ever before, I have to think that a big man coach should still be on every team's staff. Just wonder if Williams would be better now if there had been one on the Cs staff?

wideclyde wrote:When Cowens mentioned the the Cs need a quality big man coach, I immediately wondered why don't the Cs have such a guy?  How many teams have a big man coach?

Even with the league's big  men shooting more longer shots than ever before, I have to think that a big man coach should still be on every team's staff.  Just wonder if Williams would be better now if there had been one on the Cs staff?

Clyde et al,

Perhaps a relevant article.

https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/06/14/0612-bh-s-bigmen/


When the NBA’s big men outgrow traditional big man coaches




By MARK MURPHY | Boston Herald

June 14, 2020 at 5:30 a.m.


Robert Parish has wondered about Tacko Fall in the way a sculptor views a piece of raw marble.

The Hall of Famer sees the same unchiseled edges as everyone else in the Celtics rookie — seven feet and five inches of potential waiting for some team-appointed Michelangelo to smooth and round into a real player.

He lets out a prolonged “whoaaaa” when asked about Fall. Parish once unsuccessfully marketed himself to teams, the Celtics included back in the day, to work with young projects like this. His best friend, Clifford Ray, made a post-playing career out of it for a long time.

Ray, the center on Golden State’s 1975 championship team, worked with the young Al Jefferson and Kendrick Perkins as a big man coach on Doc Rivers’ Celtics staff. He was brought in to work with Dwight Howard in Orlando, and DeMarcus Cousins in Sacramento.


The jobs eventually dried up for Ray. As the NBA has redefined the role of big men — Aron Baynes now attempts more 3-pointers (4.0) than Larry Bird in his peak downtown season (1990-91, 3.3) — the means of coaching them has changed.

Parish simply wonders where the “big” in the equation is going, which brings him back to Tacko.

“If he ever can find his game, he’s gonna be a force,” said Parish. “But right now he’s just a diamond in the rough.

“You don’t know what you’re gonna get until the rough edges have been polished,” he said. “I don’t know who they have working with the big fella. It would be interesting if for once they get a true big man to work with a big man.

“Instead you have guards and forwards trying to teach centers how to play the center position. It would be like me teaching a guard how to play the guard position. I can’t do it adequately.”


But the game continues to seep out of the area Parish called home. To wit, Danny Ainge tweeted a short video last week of Fall in the Auerbach Center — turning out to the corner to make a 3-pointer.

“Tacko Tatum” was the general manager’s tag.

***

Parish admits that the modern big man is a wonder to behold. The three best in the game, in his estimation, are Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid and Karl-Anthony Towns. All three shoot the 3-pointer with impunity and punish an increasingly ill-equipped group of post defenders in the blocks.

Towns, in particular, refined his perimeter game this season, shooting .412 from 3-point range on a Durantian (7.9) number of attempts, to go along with his 4.4 assists and 26.5 scoring average.

Though opponents would still rather see him settling for threes, Embiid is unparalleled at destroying the paint and all in it. Davis dominates from the corner to the rim with more overall excellence than any big man, probably ever.

“That’s why I respect the bigs of today. Their game is so diversified,” said Parish. “They have a post game, they have a mid-range game, they’ve got 3-point shooting. What I really admire about those three players is that they still do big man things. They play defense, they rim-protect, they block shots, their transition game is solid, so I really respect how they play.”

But somewhere along the line they still need the advice of a well-established big man. Fall got an early taste, working out as a high schooler not only with Hakeem Olajuwon, but Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

The latter attempted to teach Fall the sky hook. Some things, though, cannot be taught.

“Why has nobody ever learned the sky hook like Kareem in the history of basketball,” said Ainge. “The guy shot 60% and nobody has ever learned it. It’s not like people haven’t tried. That just goes to show you how special he was — how great he was. Michael Jordan won’t be able to teach Malik Monk how to be Michael Jordan. There’s things Michael Jordan would be able to teach everybody — big man position, small man positions. I don’t think it has to be so specific. Big men coaching big men only. Then how are big men going to coach a point guard.”

The truth is, according to Dave Cowens, that big men aren’t getting the same opportunities to coach the little guys and wings.

“If you can coach you can coach. You need a big man coach? Do they have a little man coach? That’s a bias in itself,” said the Celtics legend, at 6-foot-8 the small ball center of his era. “Why are we different? I used to teach the guards. I’d say you all should have hook shots. You should all have back-to-the-basket games because you’re going to have mismatches. Muggsy Bogues is going to guard you, and you should be able to post a guy up.

“If there’s going to be matchups, why wouldn’t you learn every move the game has? Now nobody teaches a hook shot — they teach a jump hook, which was one of the shots I introduced to the whole deal in the early ’70s. Nobody was teaching jump hooks, but I developed one and tried it out. I did it early on because if you tried a regular hook the big guys would knock it out of the air. So you had to get it off quick.”

Cowens was the last player/coach in the history of the NBA, taking over a 2-12 Celtics team from the fired Satch Sanders in 1978-79. He later coached the Hornets (1996-99) and, for 105 games, the Warriors (1999-2001), after two seasons as a San Antonio assistant. He returned as an assistant coach with the Pistons from 2006-09.

When Celtics general manager M.L. Carr fired Chris Ford after the 1994-95 season, Cowens applied.

“I tried Boston and M.L. Carr hired himself. How about that one?” said Cowens. “I interviewed in Cleveland — (Jim) Paxson was the GM, another guard. All the GMs are guards.”

It got to the point, Cowens believes, where big men fell out of fashion as coaches.

“There’s a bit of a bias in coaching circles on big guys,” he said.

Asked why, he said, “Because the guys that hire them are little guys. They have to be smart, and into analytics, and talking to the press, the PR stuff, what they look like.

“One thing that aggravates me, and probably aggravates Robert (Parish) as well, is they don’t allow big guys to coach,” he said. “Every coach in the NBA is a small guy. Every coach in college is a small guy. And they all think they know how to post people up.”

Everyone seems to have a Clifford Ray story, and Cowens’ comes from the time Ray worked with Howard in Orlando. One day, as Ray told Cowens the story, head coach Brian Hill questioned his value.

“Brian Hill, who other than (Mike) Fratello may be the smallest coach in NBA history, he said, ‘We don’t really need you, Clifford, I can teach post-up,’ ” Cowens recalled. “And I’m like, he has no idea. He never posted anyone up in his life. But he knew he could teach it — he thought he could teach it.”

Parish, who unsuccessfully attempted to catch on as a coach with several teams, including the Celtics, understands that the role of a coach responsible strictly for big men has gone past the boards.

“There’s never been one. Think about it. There’s never really been a big man coach,” said Parish. “Even Kareem told me that. His role with Shaq (O’Neal) was limited. They kept them apart for whatever reason. I don’t know if it was ego. Dave Cowens has said the same thing. His role was limited because his role was limited working with the bigs. Coaching is just designated for guards and small forwards, and I never understood that concept. Don’t get it.

“(Ray) said the same thing. His coaching role was limited. I don’t understand that. Especially when it comes to the big people, because guards and forwards cannot teach the bigs how to play their position.”

Parish, who now makes public appearances on behalf of the NBA, also points a finger at himself where his inability to get a coaching job is concerned.

“It didn’t work out, and I’m gonna take most of the blame for it,” he said. “I didn’t start reaching out until I was 57 or 58, and by then I was too old. I felt like I waited too long to campaign to do something. That was one of the main reasons. I was almost 60, and they basically show coaches the door by then.”

***

One of the longest-suffering narratives for Knicks fans was the team’s history of passing over Patrick Ewing for the head coaching job, including during his long stint as a New York assistant. The Georgetown coach was reportedly insulted by his former team after being offered the Knicks’ G-League job.

“There probably is a big man perception,” Ewing told Yahoo Sports in 2014. “They think that all guards are the best thing. It’s a guard-oriented league right now, but it is what it is.”

Nothing has changed. The names most attached to the Knicks’ current opening are Tom Thibodeau and Kenny Atkinson, the recently fired Brooklyn coach.

“Tim Duncan might be the next one to be a head coach somewhere,” surmised Cowens. “Who knows? Why didn’t Jabbar ever get a head job? He tried forever. Not too many guys who were more productive than him — a smart guy, and he couldn’t get a look. I think people hire people that look like them a little bit, maybe. There’s a vast number of people to choose from, but they tend not to select tall guys. Maybe they don’t do interviews well.”

Ainge points to the changing nature of the league. Big men are now taught guard skills — indeed, expected to develop them. It’s not about the size of the coach, says the Celtics general manager. It’s the need of the particular big man that counts.

“Ultimately it’s the coaches who hire their own coaches. What are their philosophies? What are their needs? I don’t think there’s a bias against anybody or a person’s style of game,” said Ainge. “Depends on the player. There’s a big difference between Robert Williams and Joel Embiid. What they need to learn to do and become are completely different. We shouldn’t just classify them as big men coaches. There’s some very good big men — I’m saying 6-foot-6 to 6-8 guys — who are very good at teaching point guards who never played the point guard position. But they’ve played alongside some of the best point guards.

“I learned a lot in my time playing with Bird. We didn’t have a big man coach, but we had arguably one of the best front lines in the history of basketball. We had K.C. Jones and Chris Ford coaching — two shooting guards. It wasn’t like Robert Parish had a big man coach, at least not in the NBA. Kevin McHale. But I have no doubt that those guys could help any player. Robert Parish and Dave Cowens could help point guards, shooting guards AND big men. You don’t need coaches by positions.”

That may be part of the problem for throwback big men in the coaching ranks — diversification of the game. And though Red Auerbach thought enough of Cowens to name him player/coach during one of the most dysfunctional seasons in franchise history, the Celtics patriarch had this curious half-joke he used to tell.

“Red Auerbach had a thing — he always said if you’re over 6-foot-5 you’re not as smart as the other guys,” said Cowens. “I don’t know if he was kidding — he hired (Bill) Russell, he had (Tommy) Heinsohn.

“Wasn’t like he did it all the time, but he would do it in a kidding way, in a sarcastic way.”

In a way, intentional or not, that paints a picture like today.


Bob


.

Bob,

I guess this article makes some sense to me, but then again it doesn't.

It makes sense that a big man coach would be able to offer more than just the technical
aspects of the position to include all of the other things that assistant coaches do on every staff.
But, if he could assist even one guy to become better at being a big man in the NBA, I know that I
would certainly look to hire such a guy.

I will mention again that I fully believe that Robert Williams as an example would be better (of course, no proof) if he
had had a big man coach to help him harness his physical skills.

wideclyde wrote:Bob,

I guess this article makes some sense to me, but then again it doesn't.

It makes sense that a big man coach would be able to offer more than just the technical
aspects of the position to include all of the other things that assistant coaches do on every staff.
But, if he could assist even one guy to become better at being a big man in the NBA, I know that I
would certainly look to hire such a guy.

I will mention again that I fully believe that Robert Williams as an example would be better (of course, no proof) if he
had had a big man coach to help him harness his physical skills.

Wydeclyde

I have to agree with you 100%.  One size does not fit all.  Williams could certainly benefit from having a coach that understands the nuances of post play on both offense and defense as it relates specifically to a bigman.

Williams is a tremendous physical talent but as I have noted before, Brad does not run plays for him to get scoring opportunities other than an occasional lob.  How about having him come across the middle where he can get the pass and just turn and shoot?  How about getting him the ball more in mismatch situations?  Those are 2 additional areas where scoring opportunities can be had.  

Rob has only played in 61 games over 2 years and much of the DNP's were due to injury but in many others it was simply a case of Brad not playing him.

This will be year 3 but in terms of playing experience he has less than one year of service.  I am a big believer in repetition as a formula for improving your skills.  If Boston does not upgrade their starting center position, they will need to increase his minutes and make him a consistent member of  our rotation.  With Kanter likely moving on, the Celtics will need more out of him.   Last year he played 13.5 MPG while averaging 5.2 points 4.4 rebounds and 1.2 blocks.  He only took 88 shots during the regular season but he hit 64 of them for 72.7%.  Basically he scores on 7 out of evvery 10 shot attempts.  The Celtics might want to get him more shot attempts.

RW needs to continue to work on his body (get stronger and increase his stamina)  he needs to work on his shooting skills where he can consistently make those midrange elbow jumpers.  He needs to work on his ball handling and passing skills.  He needs to become more decisive on defense and better recognize where to be at the right time.  The NBA half court game is a PNR game so the better he does as the defensive anchor in those situations, the more he can help his team.  

I also observed him becoming too tentative as a rim protector and shot blocker.  There is an aspect of this game that cannot be coached and that's called instincts.  He is somewhat stuck in no man's land.  The Celtics would do well to turn him loose while his teammates filter players to him and then focus on defensive rebounding.  

Danny may not invest in another center outside of drafting one late.

These little guys are looking out for each other, you need an experienced big to teach bigs IMHO. Let’s hire KG to tutor RWill in the nuances of the position. A shame big guys have been overlooked for years. Brad might be a great coach, a big man coach can certainly help him.

kdp59 wrote:

dboss wrote:

kdp59 wrote:

dboss wrote:Sure sounds like there are bargains to be had.  Most teams are over the CAP so FA for low salaries should be a target for Boston.

which is one reason why I think IF Hayward opts out and leaves, Thompson may  be a serious option at the higher MLE. He has a ring and likely wants to play for a team competing. None of the teams with cap space this year will compete for a championship.

Putting some of the recent rumors together here this morning, IF Hayward does stay. Ainge can sign Holiday with the lower MLE and move up on draft day for Okongwu.

not my first options for the off-season....but my second.

Kdp59

Have you seen any reports that TT could be a target .  Anything that suggests the Celtics are interested in him.  

I have seen nothing about IT  either wanting to come back or the Celtics having any interest.

kdp and dboss,

https://www.clnsmedia.com/videos/could-isaiah-thomas-return-to-the-celtics/


https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7xbtvk


Bob


.

Btw, for those who haven't heard, the rumors are that Harden is on the block and Westbrook has requested a trade because he doesn't want to be "part of a rebuild".

Those two guys are supposed to be "the rebuild".  Now I guess they consider themselves to be "finishing pieces", but want to play 35mpg and get paid like foundation pieces.

No, Danny, NO.  I know all about the talent these guys have.  Both of them have, on numerous occasions, broken our hearts but we'd have to give up a J and/or Smart to get one of them and that is not worth it.  IF THEY GET BOUGHT OUT, then absolutely!!  But only if they get bought out or if Houston is willing to make it worth our while to absorb their contracts (and I'm not even sure we could do that anyway, but if we could...).  Although, Gordon + Kanter works salary-wise for Westbrook.  Considering we might lose both of those players anyway I'd make that trade.  I would worry, however, about Westbrook's personality (translation: ego) and its impact on the locker room.  Same with Harden.  But imagine our roster if we gave up Gordon and Enes and got either one of those players.

Having settled that issue, at least to my satisfaction, movement begets movement.  Any team that can and would trade for either one of those players will have big holes in their rosters as players head to Houston to make the salaries match and those holes can be filled with cheap draft picks and/or players on rookie contracts.  And Danny has those...

Another btw, today is Westbrook's 32nd birthday.


Bob


.

bobheckler wrote:Btw, for those who haven't heard, the rumors are that Harden is on the block and Westbrook has requested a trade because he doesn't want to be "part of a rebuild".

Those two guys are supposed to be "the rebuild".  Now I guess they consider themselves to be "finishing pieces", but want to play 35mpg and get paid like foundation pieces.

No, Danny, NO.  I know all about the talent these guys have.  Both of them have, on numerous occasions, broken our hearts but we'd have to give up a J and/or Smart to get one of them and that is not worth it.  IF THEY GET BOUGHT OUT, then absolutely!!  But only if they get bought out or if Houston is willing to make it worth our while to absorb their contracts (and I'm not even sure we could do that anyway, but if we could...).  Although, Gordon + Kanter works salary-wise for Westbrook.  Considering we might lose both of those players anyway I'd make that trade.  I would worry, however, about Westbrook's personality (translation: ego) and its impact on the locker room.  Same with Harden.  But imagine our roster if we gave up Gordon and Enes and got either one of those players.

Having settled that issue, at least to my satisfaction, movement begets movement.  Any team that can and would trade for either one of those players will have big holes in their rosters as players head to Houston to make the salaries match and those holes can be filled with cheap draft picks and/or players on rookie contracts.  And Danny has those...

Another btw, today is Westbrook's 32nd birthday.


Bob


.

Probably and fortunately not Celtic targets.
More trouble than they're worth at this point.

https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2020/11/12/boston-celtics-trading-jaylen-brown-2/



The only 3 players worth trading Jaylen Brown for


by Mark Nilon4 hours ago Follow @MarkNilon


The Boston Celtics have a plethora of valuable assets in their possession, one of which being Jaylen Brown. Should they ever look to deal him, there are only a handful of deals they might consider.

First, let me start off by saying we are CERTAINLY NOT advocating that the Boston Celtics should be looking into trading Jaylen Brown. After signing a 4-year, $115 million extension last offseason, the wing went on to have himself a truly impressive campaign.

Through 57 games played, the 24-year-old posted career highs all across the board, averaging 20.3 points, 6.4 rebounds, 2.1 assists, and 1.1 blocks per game on 48 percent shooting from the field and 38 percent shooting from deep.

An arguable All-Star snub, Brown is showing early signs that he could even wind up being considered underpaid in regard to his current contract, which is an ironic turn of events as many around the sports media world believed Danny Ainge and co. had overspent on the, then, third-year pro when he initially signed the dotted line.

So, again, by no means are we suggesting the Cs should look into dealing the young-stud any time soon. That said, it is fun to think about what his trade value could be in the hypothetical scenario that he was being shopped.

Recently, former NBA big man Channing Frye suggested that packaging together the likes of Brown and Marcus Smart would be enough to pry Trailblazers shooting guard, CJ McCollum, away from Portland.

Of course, we at the Houdini considered this notion to be a complete farce, as a deal SOLELY involving Jaylen Brown for McCollum straight up would be a disgrace of a deal for the Celtics, yet Frye went on to say that this AND Smart would be the only package worthy of the 29-year-old’s talents.

After the venom that was circulating through our veins cleared out, we got to thinking: if Boston actually did look into dealing their versatile wing, what potential return players would the Celtics consider worthy of being targeted?

Frankly, there are really only 3 individuals that we believe the Cs could view as worthy of trading Jaylen Brown for.

Read on to see who they are:


Player worth trading Jaylen Brown for No. 1) Kawhi Leonard

The idea of the Boston Celtics trading Jaylen Brown for Kawhi Leonard is actually nothing new.

A while back, Bleacher Report wrote an article entitled Absurd NBA Trade Offers for Every Team’s Most Untouchable Star and, in it, deemed a trade involving Brown, Robert Williams III, Romeo Langford, and the number 14 pick in this upcoming draft the trade that could be enough to land the 2x NBA Finals MVP.

Frankly, a deal like this could prove to be solid for both parties, especially if the Los Angeles Clippers believe Leonard to be a flight risk should they underperform yet again.

In the article, writer Zach Buckley went into further detail as to why acquiring Brown could be beneficial for LA:

Brown has made a leap since then and merited All-Star consideration this season. He’s still a weight class or two behind Leonard, but he remains a solid centerpiece in a theoretical Leonard trade. If the Clippers think their formula is flawed—they blew a 3-1 lead in the conference semifinals and could lose Leonard or Paul George to free agency next offseason—this would bring back multiple building blocks, plus a lottery pick.

In turn, the Boston Celtics would finally land Leonard, who was linked to the team two years ago when he forced his way out of San Antonio before ultimately being traded to the Toronto Raptors.

Adding the superstar to a core already consisting of All-Stars Jayson Tatum & Kemba Walker and the Swiss Army man, Marcus Smart, would be an unbelievable scenario, as it would easily make Boston the favorites to take the Eastern Conference crown and, with that, would likely make them overall NBA title favorites.


Player worth trading Jaylen Brown for No. 2) Karl-Anthony Towns

The second player on the docket is Minnesota Timberwolves All-Star center, Karl-Anthony Towns. After playing five years in the NBA, the 25-year-old has managed to establish himself as one of the best young talents currently in the league, and only appears to be getting better as the years pass on.

In 2019-20, KAT yet again put up impressive numbers all across the board. In just under 34 minutes a night, the 6-11, 248-pound big averaged 26.5 points, 10.8 rebounds, 4.4 assists, and 1.2 blocks per game on 51 percent shooting from the floor and 41 percent shooting from 3-point range.

Considering their evident need for an upgrade at the pivot, should the Boston Celtics ship off Jaylen Brown it would likely be for a top-tier center.

Towns is exactly that.

A 2x All-Star, an All-NBA selection, and a dominant rebounder & scorer, having the young big man being a part of a lineup consisting of Jayson Tatum and Kemba Walker would easily help formulate the best big-3 in the entire NBA, let alone the Eastern Conference and, most likely, would better position themselves for their first Finals appearance in over a decade.


Player worth trading Jaylen Brown for No. 3) James Harden

Last, but certainly not least, we see James Harden as one of the only players the Boston Celtics could consider trading Jaylen Brown for.

Heck, with rumors rumbling of trouble in paradise between “The Beard” and the Houston Rockets, this idea may not actually be as far-fetched as some may have previously thought. In fact, even recently ESPN came out with a statement saying that if Harden requested a trade, the shamrocks could prove to have one of the best return packages for him.

As we all are well aware, the 30-year-old is one of the only true superstars in the league today. This short-list includes the likes of LeBron James, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kevin Durant (when healthy), Stephen Curry (when healthy), Anthony Davis, and Harden.

That’s it!

With this in mind, if the Cs see an opportunity to bring on such a player, they should inquire about his availability, no?

The 8x All-Star, 7x All-NBA selection, and 2017-18 league MVP is coming off yet another fantastic campaign, as he put up unbelievable averages of 34.3 points, 7.5 assists, 6.6 rebounds, and 1.8 steals per game on 44 percent shooting from the floor and 36 percent shooting from deep.

Adding him to this Cs team that was a mere two games away from reaching this year’s NBA Finals would be absolutely menacing. Bring on the fact that in a scenario where they could also package together Kemba Walker’s deal — fear of injury woes continue to ramp up — and perhaps they could get sound role-players such as Robert Covington and P.J. Tucker back in return alongside Harden.

It’s a stretch to trade Brown for the former MVP, and not recommended as far as the Houdini’s concerned, but a player like Harden will obviously require a large haul in return and, for what it’s worth, teams tend to love acquiring all the star power they possibly can.

If the Boston Celtics were interested in trading for the man’s services, a player like Jaylen Brown would need to be the “meat” of any sort of exchange.

To bring this full circle, we do NOT want Brown to be dealt. That said, these 3 players are likely the only ones that Boston would consider targeting in such a trade.


Bob
MY NOTE:  As much as I love Jaylen I could see trading him for Kawhi and KAT.  Harden?  No.  I think the deal they propose for Kawhi is too rich, we give up too much, but Kawhi is a player I would trade Jaylen for.  KAT for Jaylen straight up?  Yes.  Once again, I love Jaylen, but KAT is an elite center and is still quite young and capable of growth.

The truth is I posted this mostly just to enjoy the sound of Cowens' head exploding...


.

amen to that!

what has Harden ever won?

what big game has played like a big time player?

what other star has he NOT been able to get along with?

of the two Westbrook is the better player and he isn't coming here either.

stay far away from Harden, I say....but I do hope he goes to Philly!!

Embiid will be sulking a lot when Harden hogs the ball over and over again and comes up short in ever bug game he plays in......Embiid will LONG for the days of Jimmy Butler then.

Bobh,
Interesting trade suggestions.
The only trade I'd consider is KAT.
#1 and #3 are too dangerous for chemistry.

AK

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nba-rumors-celtics-emerged-potential-182237937.html



NBA rumors: Celtics have emerged as potential trade destination for Jrue Holiday


Nick Goss

Thu, November 12, 2020, 10:22 AM PST



New Orleans Pelicans point guard Jrue Holiday is perhaps the most popular name in trade rumors leading up to next week's 2020 NBA Draft, and one team that reportedly has interest in acquiring him is the Boston Celtics.

The Celtics are the only team in the upcoming draft with three picks in the first round, and according to Kevin O'Connor of The Ringer, they are looking at ways to trade these selections in an attempt to facilitate a deal for Holiday.

"The Celtics have offered up their three first-round picks (nos. 14, 26, and 30) in trades to try and move into the lottery, but multiple league sources say they intend to reroute that pick to the Pelicans in exchange for Jrue Holiday," O'Connor wrote in his latest mock draft.

"If Boston is able to acquire the necessary assets, it’d still need to add salaries to make a deal work. Could that mean Gordon Hayward or Kemba Walker could be on the move? No matter the case, the Celtics are up to something big to try and bolster their title odds."

Holiday is 30 years old and has a salary cap hit of $26,261,111 for the 2020-21 season, per Spotrac. He has a player option in his contract worth $26,285,000 for 2021-22.

The veteran guard is a very good player at both ends of the court. He averaged 19.1 points, 6.7 assists and 4.8 rebounds in 61 games for the New Orleans Pelicans last season. Holiday also was an All-Defensive first team selection in 2017-18 and an All-Defensive second team pick in 2018-19.

One of the concerns with Holiday is his durability. He's spent the last seven years with the Pelicans and has played more than 70 games in a single season just once over that span.

That said, if the Celtics want to make a major move for a star player, Holiday is one of the best options among the players rumored to be available. He's certainly a better fit than Houston Rockets guard Russell Westbrook.


Bob
MY NOTE:  Jrue Holiday would be a pretty damn significant upgrade over Wanny at back up PG, and I'm a big Wanny fan.  He's a 2X All-NBA Defensive Team player (1st and 2nd teams), a 1X All-Star (admittedly back in 2013) Whether he'd be happy backing up Kemba is another issue (this is assuming Kemba is still with us).  I have NO idea how Danny could pull this off, salary-wise.  Draft picks have zero impact on salary cap until they are signed.  Maybe that's the plan?  We draft who they want, sign them and then trade them?  Sounds a bit over-engineered to me, too many possible points-of-failure (e.g. what if they want Player A @ 26 and he's not available?).   FYI, Jrue Holiday + Jahlil Okafor = Kemba Walker as far as the trade machine goes.  Okafor is a cheaper version of Kanter.  Lousy defense but a brute on the boards.  I'm not a fan of O, never have been, but if Kanter is gone he fills that bill (assuming Danny and Brad don't feel Poirier deserves a shot after a year in Brad's system).  Holiday, however, has one more year on his contract and then a player option for $26M.  That's a ton of money for a back up point guard.  Quality?  Yes, but overkill?  Maybe.


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no way to get Jrue with that $26m Salary coming here without Kemba, Hayward or Brown going somewhere else.

so it would be more like he was replacing one of those and not Wanamaker.

so no.

My assumption for a Holiday pickup is that Hayward would be involved.

Hi,
I don't see a reason to swap GH for JH. Makes no sense.
Not much more sense is Kemba. Unless there's 3-teams trade and Celtics are getting somebody else.

AK

I do not see them trading for Holiday unless it was for Kemba Walker and we would still need something coming back as well.

I seriously doubt we will see a blockbuster trade. With the luxury tax penalty being reduced by around 30% I see GH opting in and Danny trading up but it would have to be up to the 6th or 7th pick level. Otherwise I could see Danny keeping 14 and moving 26 and 30 and maybe a player for some veteran depth.

My ideal trades - Celts trade GH to Indy for Miles Turner +, and trade Kw to NO for Jrue plus,

The Celts would then have the best defensive starting lineup in the NBA and a damn good starting unit offensively: Miles, Jrue, Marcus, Jaylen, and Jayson. How would NBA coaches game plan against THAT lineup?!? Plus our bench would be deeper.

The rumor mill hits high speed this close to the draft.

I guess the hot item du jour is Kemba and Hayward departing, along with some picks and a few added bodies flying back and forth. The whole thing lands with Holiday the Celtics new PG and Turner the new C. Mostly fired up from the Bleacher Report I hear, but haven't seen it for myself. My son said he saw something to that effect there.

Whatever.

That would be a defensive improvement, but who knows if there's even a shred of reality to the whole story.

It must have come from the usual reliable but unidentified, super secret, but honest they're real, sources with knowledge of the situation. Right. I guess we can believe it when we see it. Nice if true; lots of Celtic wins by something like 95 - 80.

NYCelt,

likely these articles from BR:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2917772-myles-turner-trade-rumors-celtics-hornets-linked-to-pacers-center

a key part in above story

While it would likely take a larger package to entice the Pacers, Indiana could financially swap Oladipo and Turner's contracts for Hayward's, bringing the Indiana-native and former Butler star back to his hometown.

and this one about Holiday:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2917708-jrue-holiday-trade-rumors-celtics-could-move-3-1st-round-picks-for-pelicans-pg

a key part in that story:

Boston would have to send out a matching salary in any trade for Holiday. Kemba Walker and Gordon Hayward are the only two realistic options, with the latter being far more likely. Hayward is heading into the last year of his contract and has been oft-injured during his three seasons in Boston.

I doubt NO would want Kemba's contract back, so a third team would need to be added to make it work...the Knicks maybe?

I'll say one thing IF Ainge made both of those moves, he certainly would solidify the "trader Danny" handle he got early on!!

frankly I'm still fine with the Pacers deal only needed myself and dount any of them happen.

actually...IF those rumors have any truth...a BIG IF...then a three team trade will work between all those teams as follows:

Boston Gets

M.Turner- Ind
J. Holiday- NO

Indiana gets:

G. Hayward- Bos
Robert Williams- Bos
#26 and #30 picks- Bos

NO gets:

V. Oladipo- Ind
E. Kanter- Bos
C. Edwards- Bos
#14 pick- Bos



hmmmmmmmm.