If the Cavs Rescind...

tjmakz wrote:

atcross wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

atcross wrote:

sinus007 wrote:Hi,
Besides the common sense, here is some info that show that all this drama is just simple case of extortion that Cavs try to pull.

AK

I don't know anything about the medical side but based on that article and my background in negotiating business deals this sounds like an immature GM in Cleveland who is going to find out why Trump is actually a lousy negotiator. Other GMs around the league will be making note of this tactic.

As an FYI, this was not an unbiased article.
The writer is a big Celtics, Red Sox and Patriots fan.
His facebook and twitter are all about Boston sports teams.

But the facts are pretty straight forward. Short of Cleveland being able to prove that falsified health records were provided there doesn't seem to be much for them to stand on. I don't know what league rules are for voiding an agreement without cause but at the least if they do it will send a message to the rest of the GMs about dealing with them in the future. We can void the deal and just shrug. IT and Crowder (and JC had to know he could be traded) may both be a little hurt emotionally but I think they will get over it. Most of the non-Celtics writers seemed to think the Cavs were lucky to get the deal so I don't see other GMs lined up to offer anything better that what is on the table right now.

We will soon find out who wants this trade more.
Danny sounded super thrilled about getting Irving and seemed to have no hesitations about giving up the Nets pick.
Cleveland might not get a better deal, but they also might not be getting the deal they thought they were getting.

This was a great trade for Cleveland if IT would be coming back in a month or two and play like he did last year.
It's looking more and more like that's not a reality.

If it's a matter of rest/rehab and calming inflammation then putting a date on when he would be ready to play is impossible. My understanding is that is very much a case by case treatment. Also it sounds like there may be a congenital deformity that could be prone to problems throughout his career. All of that was surely in the records. If their doctor looked at it and said six months and not six weeks, it's just a matter of opinion. No one knows for sure but they should have known that no one knows for sure.

CLE knew..............it'll take a great deal of talk and facts to convince me otherwise. We PLAYED them in the ECF, and IT didn't play..........for the love of God, if anyone knew the guy was hurt, it was CLE

Everyone knows IT is hurt. That's not an issue.
The issue is the extent of the injury.
Upon examination, IT's injury is worse than Cleveland thought it was going to be.
This is a valid reason to ask for more compensation or void the trade.

TJ, I've got valid reasons to ask my employer to double my salary... I'm still waiting. They can ask for whatever they like, the whole world can feel that they have grounds to ask, no problem. But if they "discovered" something during the exam that they thought was undisclosed and maybe deceitful, then void and promise not to ever do business with that lying, cheating Ainge ever again. We'll keep our injured PG, players and pick, they keep their all-star PG. Each side moves on and deal with ramifications as they see fit. It has not been ordained or made law that the deal must happen. Cle is talking out of both sides of their mouth. They're implying but not saying that the Celtics pulled a fast one but they'll overlook it if you sweeten the deal. Hell no, if you tried to screw me and I caught you, then I'm through dealing with you AND I'm spreading the word on how you operate! IMO, Cle, their inept owner, and their rookie GM are trying to save face. As I said, if Ainge pissed on you, you don't ask him for an umbrella, you get out of the way!

dboss wrote:

tjmakz wrote:Everyone knows IT is hurt. That's not an issue.
The issue is the extent of the injury.
Upon examination, IT's injury is worse than Cleveland thought it was going to be.
This is a valid reason to ask for more compensation or void the trade.

Cleveland does not want to void the deal and neither does Boston.

worse than what they thought...you read that somewhere but who the hell knows what that really means.

In my opinion it is not a valid reason.  From Boston's perspective they disclosed medical records to the Cavs.  The Celtics medical advisers looked at the injury and came up with what the extent of the injury was.  The Cavs staff MAYBE sees it differently or maybe they are just trying to fleece the Celtics

In any event Boston should not up the compensation package.  

The Cavs medical staff know about this type of injury as well as the timeline for recovery with and without surgery.

The Cavs were very disingenuous.  

dboss

I disagree with you.
Cleveland is saying that Boston underestimated how long IT would be out.

This is from an article from 4 days ago, before IT had his physical.

7. Boston GM Danny Ainge indicated Thomas may not be ready for the opening of the season. Talking to some people for the Cavs, they are more upbeat. But they'll know more when Thomas is in town and examined by the doctors at Cleveland Clinic.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2017/08/cleveland_cavaliers_trade_scri.html

willjr wrote:TJ, I've got valid reasons to ask my employer to double my salary... I'm still waiting. They can ask for whatever they like, the whole world can feel that they have grounds to ask, no problem. But if they "discovered" something during the exam that they thought was undisclosed and maybe deceitful, then void and promise not to ever do business with that lying, cheating Ainge ever again. We'll keep our injured PG, players and pick, they keep their all-star PG. Each side moves on and deal with ramifications as they see fit. It has not been ordained or made law that the deal must happen. Cle is talking out of both sides of their mouth. They're implying but not saying that the Celtics pulled a fast one but they'll overlook it if you sweeten the deal. Hell no, if you tried to screw me and I caught you, then I'm through dealing with you AND I'm spreading the word on how you operate! IMO, Cle, their inept owner, and their rookie GM are trying to save face. As I said, if Ainge pissed on you, you don't ask him for an umbrella, you get out of the way!

You're being a little dramatic.
I have not heard anywhere where Cleveland felt Danny was being deceitful.
The bottom line is, the doctors at the Cleveland Clinic feel IT's injury is worse than they were expecting.
I know IT is scheduled to go to the Dr. early next month.
What if it hasn't healed as expected and Danny is unaware of this since IT hasn't been re-evaluated by Boston Dr's recently?

I'm not being at all dramatic. What seems to be coming out of Cle is metaphorically speaking, whispers, winks, and code words. If their Dr's saw something unexpected and in their view long term and to the detriment of them moving forward, then call it off. Every post I've made since the "drama" started has been straightforward and to the point. Cle, if you were wronged, misled, or came upon unexpected circumstances, back out. If the deal isn't what you thought it was, stop with the innuendo, put an end to the "insiders" speculating and call it off. While it's different from a car salesman promising me one thing and when I get to the lot it's something totally different or unexpected given to me and I decide to walk, it's really not that different.

If Danny disclosed to CLE that IT may not be ready to start the season, and the CLE people were more "upbeat" about it, how did Danny UNDERestimate how long he'd be out?

He disclosed what he did before the trade, CLE accepted the parameters of the deal.......they are just being dicks!

A deal is a deal. No one can predict how long IT will be out, and the Cavs know that very well. If they try to gain more compensation and I were Ainge, I would no longer offer a first round pick but a second round pick. Then the Cavs are stuck with a malcontent. See how that works out for them.

[quote="dboss"]Cleveland said this and Cleveland said that.  How the heck does anyone know for sure when IT will be ready to play.  The Celts estimate is just as good as Cleveland.  

By Thusday we will have an answer.  I would not be upset if the deals dies.  Any additional compensation will not sit well with Celtics fans

Dboss, my point exactly. Cle, if you're not happy, call it off. We'll deal with our injured player and whatever locker room dynamics that arise, you figure out a way to reintegrate Irving or find another trading partner. There are upwards of 20 teams who would love to have a 25 yr old all-star on their roster. Its not written in stone that Irving can only be dealt to the Celtics, and hey Cavs, wouldn't it be to your benefit if your biggest conference rival would have to play part, much, or all year without their leading scorer and assist man?

mrkleen09 wrote:

BleedGreen wrote:
Did you just say they could sign Kyrie or anyone else next summer?

You know Kyrie is not able to opt out of his current contract until 2019 right? And even if he were, the capped out Celtics would not be able to sign him. They have 96 million in guaranteed contracts all ready for 2018-19 and that is before the simple act of picking up Jaylen Brown's 3rd year option puts them over the 99.7m cap.

Yes, Danny Ainge has showed that he is willing to make any deal at anytime to help the team.  If Kyrie is his guy, he will make it happen.  He still has a number of valuable players and a ton of assets- more than most other teams.  The cap has zero to do with impeding DA if he is willing to move players and picks to get what he wants.

The Cavs will not get a better deal that this one - they would be fools to turn it down.

Ummm, there is a big difference between "C's can sign Irving (he's not a FA) or anyone else (they can't sign ANYONE for more than an exception) next summer" and a cop out "Danny has shown he can ACQUIRE anyone he wants in a trade is what I meant" comment. You know this.

When was the last time Boston fully examined IT's hip?
It sounds like it's been a while.
Brad has been saying that "we will know more in September".

If Cleveland voids this trade, what is IT's value then?

Trades are a negotiation.
There's also a negiotation opportunity if a player fails a physical.
To say they should just end it is shortsighted for both team who want this or a similar trade to go through.

Pumpsie Green wrote:A deal is a deal. No one can predict how long IT will be out, and the Cavs know that very well. If they try to gain more compensation and I were Ainge, I would no longer offer a first round pick but a second round pick. Then the Cavs are stuck with a malcontent. See how that works out for them.

Pumpsie

Long time!

What's new?

Regards

NYCelt wrote:

Pumpsie Green wrote:A deal is a deal. No one can predict how long IT will be out, and the Cavs know that very well. If they try to gain more compensation and I were Ainge, I would no longer offer a first round pick but a second round pick. Then the Cavs are stuck with a malcontent. See how that works out for them.

Pumpsie

Long time!

What's new?

Regards

Not a lot going on with the Celtics until this trade. IMO the Cavs got too much.
Been running a Sox forum NY. It has been a while since I was here.

TJ, trust that I am not coming at you in any way. This thing has turned into a drama, but the drama is emanating from the shores of Lake Erie. I have no problem with more negotiations, or if the trade falls through. As a Celtic fan, but not one blinded by green, my feeling is that with Kyrie or with the BKLN pick (which to me is the jewel, IT IMO is not long for Boston or Cle no matter how this plays out) our future and title chances are at best 2-3 years away. Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, and Hayward as a core growing together will be formidable in the above mentioned time frame. Brown, Tatum, Hayward, and Porter, Docic, Bagley, Ayton, or Bamba the projested 2018 blue chippers would also be a formidable core in 3-4 years. That is of course assuming they meet the potential that many personnel men see in them. No different than what Laker fans say, see, and hope when it comes to Ball and Ingram. To sum up my feelings on the current drama, I'm good either way on the deal/no deal, but I do think that there is more disingenuous from the Cavs than deceit from the Celtics. I do think that the mercurial nature of their owner and the inexperience of their GM has turned this into the melodrama that it has become. And you cannot discount the influence of talk radio and TV to douse gasoline on candles, so to speak. I mean they have to HAVE something to prattle on and on about.

Does anyone know for a fact that teams are provided medical records BEFORE a deal is signed? If not, I might understand Cleveland's position. But if they were then they would have included a ton of x-rays and MRIs. For injuries of that kind that is really all you know until you get in there with a scope. You can do a physical exam but that will only tell you if the symptoms mirror the images and the progress of recovery. If it was a long term or congenital problem then the range of motion or discomfort may be distorting the physical exam. If they had the imaging then they had everything they needed to evaluate short of scoping the hip.

BleedGreen wrote:  

Ummm, there is a big difference between "C's can sign Irving (he's not a FA) or anyone else (they can't sign ANYONE for more than an exception) next summer" and a cop out "Danny has shown he can ACQUIRE anyone he wants in a trade is what I meant" comment. You know this.

The point remains, Kyrie being under contract has zero to do with Danny Ainge's ability to get him if he wants him.  
Kyrie has said he will not play another minute in Cleveland.
IT for 3/4 of a season PLUS Crowder and a high first round pick is still BY FAR the best deal the Cavs will get.

Kyrie Irving will be a Celtic if Danny wants him and Kyrie wants to play here.  All the rest is noise.

If IT was going to miss just 20 games, this would prob be a non issue.
Cleveland could manage with Rose while IT is out.
There must be more to the examination for Cleveland to risk imploding this trade.

This entire mess should have been avoided. Cleveland and Boston (and every other team in the league) should have been able to figure that once Thomas was diagnosed with a torn labrum back in May that he would not be ready to start this season at 100% without having an operation to fix his hip.

Any one of us can go to Google and read up on torn hip labrum injuries and in every article you read you will very likely see that the solution to repairing a torn labrum requires surgery.  It is then pretty obvious that without the surgery that Thomas not being ready for training camp should come to absolutely no surprise to anyone.

Not that Thomas is a doctor, but he can read the info about hip labrum tears just like the rest of us.  I think that he is mostly at fault for not having surgery back in May.  He was blinded by his desire to get a max contract in his decision making process.  Apparently gambled and lost by not having his hip
fixed in May.

dboss wrote:I heard that medical records were exchanged before physicals took place.

Dboss

100% correct.

March 12 - How Trades Happen

This is the first in a regular series of articles answering fans' questions for the front office. If you have a question for the front office, . Our web staff will pick one question each month or so to forward to Mike Zarren, the team's Assistant Executive Director of Basketball Operations. We reserve the right to select whichever questions we feel like asking...

This month's question: What actually happens when a team wants to make a trade? How does it work?
-Dorothy, Swampscott, MA

MZ: Trades are more complicated than most people think. In addition to finding players that each team wants to exchange, there are many things that each team must evaluate besides the players' performance on the court. As a result, each NBA trade requires a number of steps that fans at home don't often consider. I'll list most of them here, but keep in mind that during an actual trade, these things are often happening simultaneously.

1. Salary Cap Calculations. Most teams can't just exchange any players they want, due to the collectively-bargained salary cap rules. These rules are too complicated to explain here; you can find decent, though not necessarily always complete or correct, descriptions at the ESPN Trade Machine and Larry Coon's CBA FAQ. Each team must calculate (a) whether the trade works under the rules, and (b) how the trade will affect the team's future player salary and luxury tax plans. Further complications in these calculations may arise from factors such as trade bonuses (contractually required to be paid to certain players in the event of a trade).

2. Exchange of Medical Information. Each team is required to disclose in writing all medical information held by the team that might in any way relate to the relevant players' abilities to play basketball. (Yes, HIPAA lawyers, the players have validly consented to this.) Each team then scrutinizes this information, usually before agreeing to the deal. In addition to reading written descriptions of players' conditions, team doctors often examine MRIs, X-rays, EKGs, or other test results as part of this step.

3. Exchange of Insurance Information. Each team also must disclose any insurance policies that cover the relevant players' salaries. The receiving team for each player must then determine if it wishes to assume any such policies, and, if it's a mid-season trade, the teams must also agree on what portion of the policy premiums will be paid by each team. This step sometimes involves detailed consultation between teams' finance departments.

4. Bonus-Assumption Decisions. In mid-season trades, the teams must also agree on what portion each team will pay of any player's incentive bonuses if the player ends up qualifying (under the terms of his individual contract language) for bonus payments at the end of the year. A team acquiring a player in February might not want to pay all of a player's bonus when the player earned more than half of the bonus while playing for another team!

5. No-Trade Clauses / Trade-Bonus Reductions. In rare situations, a player may have the right to refuse a trade. In other situations, the trade might not work under the salary cap rules unless a player agrees to reduce a trade bonus that the acquiring team would owe him. If a player's consent is required (either to execute the trade or to reduce the trade bonus), the general manager of the player's current team often will hold lengthy discussions with the player's agent. In these cases, however, neither the sending nor the receiving team is allowed to offer a player any additional incentive for his consent -- the player is free to consent or not consent as he pleases.

6. Draft Considerations. If draft pick rights are part of the trade, the teams must specify exactly which picks are being exchanged. In some cases, it's as simple as "Boston's 2006 second round pick," or "The 2nd round pick Boston previously received from Phoenix in the Walter McCarty trade." However, in other cases the teams include "protection" against a pick being high in the draft, or they determine that Team A will not receive the draft pick of Team B until Team B receives or sends another, previously-traded, pick to or from Team C. Writing the language that governs exactly which pick(s) will be traded will often involve team and league legal counsel -- in the case of one heavily-protected pick traded from Minnesota to Boston in the Ricky Davis / Wally Szczerbiak trade, the language covered most of a page. (Amusingly, this pick was later traded back to Minnesota in the Kevin Garnett deal, and none of the language on the page -- which we spent several hours crafting -- ever took effect.)

7. Sign-and-Trade / Extend-and-Trade Deals. In some cases, one team will have the right to sign a player to a new contract of a certain size, but another team (which wants to acquire that player) will not have this right. The two teams can then agree to a trade in which the first team signs the player to a new contract that contains a clause saying the contract is only effective if the player is traded to the second team within 48 hours. This is called a "sign-and-trade" deal; in these deals, the first team grants the second team the right to talk to the relevant player. If the player and the second team agree to new contract terms, the first team signs the contract with the player and then trades him to the second team. These trades can take longer to complete: not only must the two teams negotiate the terms of a deal, but one of the teams also must make a deal with the player (involving even more salary calculations). Also, because new contracts can also have legal and tax consequences for both the team and the player, a player's lawyer or tax counsel may be involved, in addition to the player's agent, while payment schedules and other terms are discussed. The Kevin Garnett trade was the NBA's first "extend-and-trade," deal: KG signed a contract extension (that we had negotiated with him) with Minnesota, and then was immediately traded to Boston. (The extension contained a clause providing that the extension only took effect if the trade to Boston was completed.) Because it was the first deal of its kind, the collective bargaining agreement clauses governing this type of deal had never before been relevant to an actual transaction. Application of these rules by the league and the players' association for the first time added even more complexity to the deal.

8. The Trade Call. Once all of the things listed above have been considered and agreed upon for a particular trade, the teams draft an email detailing the terms of the trade, which each GM must then send to the league. And all this must be done before the trade deadline! Then representatives of each team, along with league lawyers, participate in a recorded conference call during which the terms of each player's contract, along with all other terms of the deal (including all of the details described above), are read aloud and agreed to by each team's representatives. Each team must also certify that there are no side deals or additional agreements, either between the teams or with any player, that were not disclosed in the trade email or on the trade call. Assuming that this all goes smoothly, the teams then agree upon a timeline for announcing the trade and holding press conferences. Sometimes, this timeline is short -- we completed a trade call with Seattle about 20 minutes after they selected Glen Davis at #35 in this past year's draft, and within 30 minutes of the trade call we held a press conference to announce the acquisitions of Davis and Ray Allen. Other times, teams want more time to draft press releases, etc., and the trade will not be announced for several hours or until the next day.

9. Reporting and Physicals. One final topic that's discussed on the trade call is how long each player has to report to his new team, and whether the trade will be dependent on each player passing a physical. The collective bargaining agreement gives players several days to report to their new team, but the teams may agree to provide even more time, especially over the summer. In any event, the trade is not officially complete, and no player may suit up for his new team in a game or practice, until all players report to their new teams and pass a physical exam. (Sometimes the teams agree to waive the physical exam requirement.) In addition, players near the ends of their contracts and those players' agents are required to sign forms certifying that there are no undisclosed "side deals" involving new contracts as part of the trade. As a result of the reporting deadlines and required physicals and certifications, a trade usually doesn't become "official" until long after it is announced at a press conference. For example, this past summer we traded for Kevin Garnett on July 31st. The trade call ended just before 1PM that afternoon, and Garnett immediately flew into town for a press conference that evening with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. However, the trade was not officially complete until nearly a week later, on August 7th, at 6:00 PM, when the league informed both teams that all conditions (including physicals and certifications) had been met.

So that's how a trade happens. Of course, in addition to all this stuff, there are the negotiations involved in setting up a deal. Each team is also constantly having internal discussions between owners, the GM, finance people, lawyers, coaches, scouts, and (sometimes) players about the players involved in any potential deal. Plus, we'll often be seeking information about players by contacting their former coaches and teammates, in addition to conducting detailed statistical and video-based analyses of how the addition or subtraction of any particular player might help (or hurt) our team. As you can see, trades are not always simple, and we have to take many of these steps even for potential trades that don't end up actually happening -- that's why the week of the trade deadline is often one of the busiest of the year.

Mike Zarren is the Celtics' Assistant Executive Director of Basketball Operations.

So medical records would have included x-rays and MRIs. I have to imagine that those were taken numerous times from every angle imaginable. With that type of injury, as I said, short of scoping, there is no more to be known. Bottom line I think this comes back to a stupid owner complaining that he wanted more and a young GM trying to keep his job by listening to a stupid owner who wants more. At this point in a negotiation I would definitely say call me back when you have come to your senses. I might even just walk away and let them counter until they're blue in the face. How about IT, JC, and the pick? No AZ. No? How about just IT and JC?

mrkleen09 wrote:

BleedGreen wrote:  

Ummm, there is a big difference between "C's can sign Irving (he's not a FA) or anyone else (they can't sign ANYONE for more than an exception) next summer" and a cop out "Danny has shown he can ACQUIRE anyone he wants in a trade is what I meant" comment. You know this.

The point remains, Kyrie being under contract has zero to do with Danny Ainge's ability to get him if he wants him.  
Kyrie has said he will not play another minute in Cleveland.
IT for 3/4 of a season PLUS Crowder and a high first round pick is still BY FAR the best deal the Cavs will get.

Kyrie Irving will be a Celtic if Danny wants him and Kyrie wants to play here.  All the rest is noise.

You said this can still happen NEXT summer when it almost certainly cannot. And you said Danny can SIGN anyone he wants next summer too.

How hard is it to just say you misspoke?