Re: If the Cavs Rescind...

by **mrkleen09** Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:27 pm

tjmakz wrote: None of us knows what IT's value is with his hip and with him being a free agent next summer.

His value as a player being a free agent next summer was already established when Cleveland made this deal. Clearly he was the best player 'available' and likely one of the only players that keeps the Cavs on the same level as last season. If they have to give up Kyrie (and all indications are that he will NOT play one more minute in Cleveland) and the league knows this - they are operating from a level of desperation as pre season gets closer.

If Thomas' his hip sees him missing significant time this year, Cleveland may have to back away. But that does not change my feeling that they will not find a better deal and most other offerings put their position as anointed best team in the conference in jeopardy.

by **swish** Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:39 pm

tjmakz wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:In my opinion, they are now desperate....and will not get a player close to IT if they back out of this deal. They couldnt beat the Warriors with Kyrie - they wont beat them with a lesser player, so it is all or nothing on this deal IMO.

None of us knows what IT's value is with his hip and with him being a free agent next summer.

Good point tj
A lot of comments by Celtic fans about the Cavs future if they back out of this deal - but how about the Celts future if Thomas is still with the Celtics and his playing time is quite limited or perhaps even nonexistent. Who's over the barrel than ?

swish

by **dboss** Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:42 pm

I see no need for Danny to rebuild the Celtics and the Cavs.

Under no circumstances should Danny give up a drop more than he already has.

If IT was in a freaking wheelchair this was a great deal for the Cavs. Remember Kyrie basically said FU to Lebron so Kyrie ABSOLUTELY has to be traded. The package offered by Boston is more than fair given the value of the 2018 nets Pick in a draft that will go at least 6 deep.

If this deal goes sideways and IT, Crowder and Zizic return the Celtics will trade Crowder and make a decision on IT. Right now Danny and the Celtics look really bad in basketball circles.

It was a cold blooded move but whenever a Celtic starts talking about money Danny trades them. That's his profile.

From a business perspective it makes sense but it also raises several questions in my mind about how the chessboard is being rearranged.

At what point did Danny decide to move away from IT? Was it before or after the draft?

Was it after the playoffs when he admitted that the team basically does not have enough talented players?

If the deal dies a proper death Boston will reconfigure things again and move on into the season to play basketball.

Keep in mind that getting the Golden Egg back is not a bad thing. Right?

dboss

by **dboss** Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:52 pm

swish wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:In my opinion, they are now desperate....and will not get a player close to IT if they back out of this deal. They couldnt beat the Warriors with Kyrie - they wont beat them with a lesser player, so it is all or nothing on this deal IMO.

None of us knows what IT's value is with his hip and with him being a free agent next summer.

Good point tj
A lot of comments by Celtic fans about the Cavs future if they back out of this deal - but how about the Celts future if Thomas is still with the Celtics and his playing time is quite limited or perhaps even nonexistent. Who's over the barrel than ?

swish

swish

The Celtics have options if IT comes back. They could do a buyout for example. Or they may let him rehab some more or recommend surgery.

In either case this is a great opportunity for Terry Rozier. I thought Danny reached to get him. Over the past two years, I like him more. And we got Marcus and (now we know why) Larkin, was signed.

The Cavs are clearly over the barrel that is already over the waterfalls. They are already there if they do not hold on tight to the Celtics lifeline. Next year Lebron leaving is at least 50/50.

dboss

by **Celticspride** Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:17 pm

Tell the Cavs take it or leave it.

by **willjr** Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:20 pm

Because I am of the opinion that we are not realistically title contenders in 2017-18 I don't think IT returning to us, damaged or not, will have longterm negative ramifications. Pre injury the jury was out on him being resigned long term for the money he wants so when you consider his hip it's looking much more doubtful that he will be in Boston after this season if the trade falls through. I don't think its unreasonable to assume that Danny has already made plans for a 2018 season sans IT. In the short term Kyrie returning to Cle would seem to be much more damaging to their chemistry and locker room than IT and Crowder returning to ours, especially considering that they and their King are in championship or bust mode. In the long term they will be in a tough spot as well. An aging team with no draft picks, Love and Thompson on obscene contracts, a point guard who does not want to be there, who also resents the face of the franchise and will bolt in 2 years. A face of the franchise who will most likely bolt in 1 year. IMO our longterm doesn't include IT injury/trade or no but it does include 2 (probable) high lottery picks and some pretty good young talent. Trade or not, the sailing should be a lot smoother on the Charles then on Lake Erie.

by **swish** Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:48 pm

dboss wrote:
swish wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:In my opinion, they are now desperate....and will not get a player close to IT if they back out of this deal. They couldnt beat the Warriors with Kyrie - they wont beat them with a lesser player, so it is all or nothing on this deal IMO.

None of us knows what IT's value is with his hip and with him being a free agent next summer.

Good point tj
A lot of comments by Celtic fans about the Cavs future if they back out of this deal - but how about the Celts future if Thomas is still with the Celtics and his playing time is quite limited or perhaps even nonexistent. Who's over the barrel than ?

swish

swish

The Celtics have options if IT comes back. They could do a buyout for example. Or they may let him rehab some more or recommend surgery.

In either case this is a great opportunity for Terry Rozier. I thought Danny reached to get him. Over the past two years, I like him more. And we got Marcus and (now we know why) Larkin, was signed.

The Cavs are clearly over the barrel that is already over the water fall. They are already there if they do not hold on tight to the Celtics lifeline. Next year Lebron leaving is at least 50/50.

dboss

dboss
With all the facts not yet known and so many ifs involved I can only speculate based on how the ifs could turn out.
I believe that you stated that the Cavs were in such a bind with Irving that they would be lucky to get back 50 cents on the dollar - well the trade with Boston said otherwise.
* Do you have any reason to believe that the Cavs cannot make another deal that would also be equitable for the Cavs - say Irving for the Suns #2 pick plus.
* And of course - who replaces Thomas for the Celtics, if the deal is negated, and Thomas is not able to play ? You mention Rozier - well that's a heckava drop off from an all pro player.

swish

by **bobheckler** Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:54 pm

NESN
NESN @NESN
The Cavs reportedly will ask for Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown to complete the Kyrie Irving trade.
(link: http://nesn.com/?p=764841) nesn.com/?p=764841

bob
MY NOTE: They can ask for whatever they want, they already asked for Tatum, but if Danny gives either one of them up AND all the rest he has lost his mind. Period. Kill the deal, Danny, and learn from this the type of guy is the new Cleveland GM.

.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:03 pm

And after we all get up off the floor from laughing, we can join Danny in his response. Since he is a Mormon, I do not think it will be as colorful as we all would like. They have to be nuts. Looks like this is a dead deal. They must really think they are in the drivers seat. I am a lady, so I will keep my response clean. Take a jump in the deepest river you can find Gilbert, and take LeBron along with you. Your 34 year old GM is a laugh a minute

by **willjr** Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:04 pm

[quote="bobheckler"]NESN
NESN @NESN
The Cavs reportedly will ask for Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown to complete the Kyrie Irving trade.
(link: http://nesn.com/?p=764841) nesn.com/?p=764841

bob
[b]MY NOTE: They can ask for whatever they want, they already asked for Tatum, but if Danny gives either one of them up AND all the rest he has lost his mind. Period. Kill the deal, Danny, and learn from this the type of guy is the new Cleveland GM.

And on another note, people in hell are asking for sno cones. I don't think ol' Beelzebub will be breaking out the ice shaving machine. Cleveland, don't "rock city" but kick rocks!

by **bobheckler** Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:27 pm

Adam Kaufman
Adam Kaufman @AdamMKaufman
Per @ChrisMannixYS on @CSNNE, #Celtics will draw line in sand. May part with a 2nd Rd pick to complete #Cavs deal. No firsts/Brown/Tatum.
5:21 PM · Aug 27, 2017

bob

.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:36 pm

Why???? They screwed up, we are validating their claims. This is really crazy. I suppose a 2nd round pick is better than screwing everything up and having these guys have to come back.

It will be interesting to see what Cleveland does. Who eats their gun first

by **tjmakz** Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:57 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Why???? They screwed up, we are validating their claims. This is really crazy. I suppose a 2nd round pick is better than screwing everything up and having these guys have to come back.

It will be interesting to see what Cleveland does. Who eats their gun first

Rosalie,

Which team screwed up?

by **RosalieTCeltics** Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:09 pm

What do they want a complete rebuild for one guy???? Com on TJ they should never have made the deal when given the info on IT. They are milking this for all they can. If anything, give them a secon rounder, but certainly not Brown, Tatum or any other 1st round pick.

If this goes on much more the Commissioner should just void the trade. It is not what I would like to happen but if they dealt in good faith, this is ridiculous

by **tjmakz** Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:54 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:What do they want a complete rebuild for one guy???? Com on TJ they should never have made the deal when given the info on IT. They are milking this for all they can. If anything, give them a secon rounder, but certainly not Brown, Tatum or any other 1st round pick.

If this goes on much more the Commissioner should just void the trade. It is not what I would like to happen but if they dealt in good faith, this is ridiculous

Apparently Cleveland feels Boston was not forthcoming about the extent of the injury.
They are in their right for ask for more compensation.
Wouldn't all teams ask for more if they found out the injury was more severe upon examination?
Danny can say no to more compensation but I really don't think he wants an injured IT back on the team.

by **dboss** Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:11 pm

swish wrote:
dboss wrote:
swish wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:In my opinion, they are now desperate....and will not get a player close to IT if they back out of this deal. They couldnt beat the Warriors with Kyrie - they wont beat them with a lesser player, so it is all or nothing on this deal IMO.

None of us knows what IT's value is with his hip and with him being a free agent next summer.

Good point tj
A lot of comments by Celtic fans about the Cavs future if they back out of this deal - but how about the Celts future if Thomas is still with the Celtics and his playing time is quite limited or perhaps even nonexistent. Who's over the barrel than ?

swish

swish

The Celtics have options if IT comes back. They could do a buyout for example. Or they may let him rehab some more or recommend surgery.

In either case this is a great opportunity for Terry Rozier. I thought Danny reached to get him. Over the past two years, I like him more. And we got Marcus and (now we know why) Larkin, was signed.

The Cavs are clearly over the barrel that is already over the water fall. They are already there if they do not hold on tight to the Celtics lifeline. Next year Lebron leaving is at least 50/50.

dboss

dboss
With all the facts not yet known and so many ifs involved I can only speculate based on how the ifs could turn out.
I believe that you stated that the Cavs were in such a bind with Irving that they would be lucky to get back 50 cents on the dollar - well the trade with Boston said otherwise.
* Do you have any reason to believe that the Cavs cannot make another deal that would also be equitable for the Cavs - say Irving for the Suns #2 pick plus.
* And of course - who replaces Thomas for the Celtics, if the deal is negated, and Thomas is not able to play ? You mention Rozier - well that's a heckava drop off from an all pro player.

swish

It was not my intentions to imply that the Cavs would be lucky to get 50% on the dollar. They are howver not in the strongest position if the deal goes south.

Nevertheless it is unlikely that the Celtics will win the title this year with or without Kyrie or Thomas. TR is an offensive drop off but at least he can play defense and rebound. And I ahould mention Smart and even Larkin.

And with the 2018 pick Boston has a legit shot of adding another stud.

I think there is equal risk doing the deal or not doing the deal but why bend over and grab your ankles. The Celtics offer was substantial even with the temporary hip issue. They just want to fleece Boston.

Dboss

by **dboss** Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:16 pm

tjmakz wrote:
RosalieTCeltics wrote:What do they want a complete rebuild for one guy???? Com on TJ they should never have made the deal when given the info on IT. They are milking this for all they can. If anything, give them a secon rounder, but certainly not Brown, Tatum or any other 1st round pick.

If this goes on much more the Commissioner should just void the trade. It is not what I would like to happen but if they dealt in good faith, this is ridiculous

Apparently Cleveland feels Boston was not forthcoming about the extent of the injury.
They are in their right for ask for more compensation.
Wouldn't all teams ask for more if they found out the injury was more severe upon examination?
Danny can say no to more compensation but I really don't think he wants an injured IT back on the team.

Tj. I am quite certain they knew enough about the injury. After all he does not have some rare disease

Dboss

by **tjmakz** Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:34 pm

dboss wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
RosalieTCeltics wrote:What do they want a complete rebuild for one guy???? Com on TJ they should never have made the deal when given the info on IT. They are milking this for all they can. If anything, give them a secon rounder, but certainly not Brown, Tatum or any other 1st round pick.

If this goes on much more the Commissioner should just void the trade. It is not what I would like to happen but if they dealt in good faith, this is ridiculous

Apparently Cleveland feels Boston was not forthcoming about the extent of the injury.
They are in their right for ask for more compensation.
Wouldn't all teams ask for more if they found out the injury was more severe upon examination?
Danny can say no to more compensation but I really don't think he wants an injured IT back on the team.

Tj. I am quite certain they knew enough about the injury. After all he does not have some rare disease

Dboss

2 hours ago – via CBSSports.com
After giving Thomas his physical, the Cavs weren’t convinced that the Celtics were fully forthcoming about the extent of Thomas’ hip injury, so they’re looking to restructure the trade with added assets. We don’t know exactly what assets Cleveland is asking for, but ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowki reported on SportsCenter on Sunday that they’ll definitely ask about rookie Jayson Tatum and second-year wing Jaylen Brown.

by **dboss** Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:56 pm

You can believe the Cavs if you want to. I don't.

Dboss

by **mrkleen09** Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:15 am

Here is what we do know.

With Lebron likely leaving - with or without Kyrie, the Cavs window is closing.
Kyrie has played his last game alongside Lebron in Cleveland.
If they rescind the trade and convince Kyrie to play with Lebron this year their window is still closing.
They desperately need to hedge against the loss of Lebron (and Kyrie) by getting some potential high draft assets.
The Celtics are the team with the most and best assets in this regard AND the only team who has a player who can still allow them to make a run this year.
The Cavs are screwed if they dont make this deal, as they squander Lebron's last year in Cleveland and end up with no Lebron, no Kyrie and no high pick.

We also know

The Celtics are NOT ready to make a legit run at the title this year, and they are not signing IT to a long term deal.

So if the trade is reversed - the Celtics get IT, Crowder and the pick back. They are a little better this year than last year, they get the pick back, and can sign Kyrie or anyone else NEXT SUMMER when they will be one step closer to contending.

There is literally zero reason for DA to give Cleveland anything else in this deal. The Cavs are the big losers here.

by **swish** Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:22 am

Perhaps the Cavs ARE shooting for a kings ransom for Irvings services - and quite naturally the Celts and fans are firing back - but consider the possibility that if the deal is voided Thomas might not ever play another game for the Celtics - due to an injury and then due to the fact that he could opt out via unrestricted free agency. That's 45.2 back court points gone(Thomas-Bradley ) with no replacements of comparative value at the guard position. Looks to me like a big step back in the rebuild - and the addition of years before the Celts might again become serious contenders for a ring. I know that I painted a worst case scenario for Danny to have to face - but never the less it seems - quite possible. No sleepless nights for me - but I wonder about Danny.

swish

by **mrkleen09** Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:28 am

IT is under contract this year, so he cannot opt out of anything unless he is too injured to play.

If he is hurt, they Celtics will insist on surgery and he will be back at some point this year. When he comes back, if he is 100% healthy and playing great - they can either trade him at the deadline or maybe offer him a shorter deal (3 years 25mm per).

by **BleedGreen** Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:45 am

swish wrote:Perhaps the Cavs ARE shooting for a kings ransom for Irvings services - and quite naturally the Celts and fans are firing back - but consider the possibility that if the deal is voided Thomas might not ever play another game for the Celtics - due to an injury and then due to the fact that he could opt out via unrestricted free agency. That's 45.2 back court points gone(Thomas-Bradley ) with no replacements of comparative value at the guard position. Looks to me like a big step back in the rebuild - and the addition of years before the Celts might again become serious contenders for a ring. I know that I painted a worst case scenario for Danny to have to face - but never the less it seems - quite possible. No sleepless nights for me - but I wonder about Danny.

swish

Glad you're sleeping ok swish despite all the negative outlooks you have for the team. Rolling Eyes

Remember that Gordon Hayward guy? Yeah he will start at a wing position and score a little bit more than Avery. Jaylen might improve a bit too. Tatum and Morris? Can they produce what Crowder and Jerebko did. Yeesh.

Do you know the recovery time for hip labrum surgery? Typically 4 months to resume normal activities and 6 months to be 100%. So if IT came back after the trade was voided and it was determined surgery should have been the decision from the start (these doctors are KILLING me) then even if the team is very cautious and playing it safe we should see IT return to bball activities by end of January and 100% by end of March in a season that will last well into May. No way he sits longer than necessary once cleared to play in a contract year. Not sure how you think he'd never play another game here unless he re-injured himself during rehab.

But Irving is almost certainly still coming aboard, so all your doom and gloom hopefully gets forgotten when the new faces gel and begin to play great ball.

by **BleedGreen** Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:53 am

mrkleen09 wrote:Here is what we do know.

With Lebron likely leaving - with or without Kyrie, the Cavs window is closing.
Kyrie has played his last game alongside Lebron in Cleveland.
If they rescind the trade and convince Kyrie to play with Lebron this year their window is still closing.
They desperately need to hedge against the loss of Lebron (and Kyrie) by getting some potential high draft assets.
The Celtics are the team with the most and best assets in this regard AND the only team who has a player who can still allow them to make a run this year.
The Cavs are screwed if they dont make this deal, as they squander Lebron's last year in Cleveland and end up with no Lebron, no Kyrie and no high pick.

We also know

The Celtics are NOT ready to make a legit run at the title this year, and they are not signing IT to a long term deal.

So if the trade is reversed - the Celtics get IT, Crowder and the pick back. They are a little better this year than last year, they get the pick back, and can sign Kyrie or anyone else NEXT SUMMER when they will be one step closer to contending.

There is literally zero reason for DA to give Cleveland anything else in this deal. The Cavs are the big losers here.

Did you just say they could sign Kyrie or anyone else next summer?

You know Kyrie is not able to opt out of his current contract until 2019 right? And even if he were, the capped out Celtics would not be able to sign him. They have 96 million in guaranteed contracts all ready for 2018-19 and that is before the simple act of picking up Jaylen Brown's 3rd year option puts them over the 99.7m cap.

by **swish** Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:08 am

mrkleen09 wrote:IT is under contract this year, so he cannot opt out of anything unless he is too injured to play.

If he is hurt, they Celtics will insist on surgery and he will be back at some point this year. When he comes back, if he is 100% healthy and playing great - they can either trade him at the deadline or maybe offer him a shorter deal (3 years 25mm per).

"If he is hurt, they Celtics will insist on surgery and he will be back at some point this year. When he comes back, if he is 100% healthy and playing great - they can either trade him at the deadline or maybe offer him a shorter deal (3 years 25mm per)."

All of above is possible mrkleen. We shall see how it all plays out.

swish

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