If the Cavs Rescind...

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Post by mrkleen09 Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:44 pm

BleedGreen wrote:
You said this can still happen NEXT summer when it almost certainly cannot.

I did not misspeak and of course it can still happen.

Even if Kyrie goes back to Cleveland and Danny still wants him next summer - all he needs to do is put together a package and make it happen. I dont get your point, if Kyrie is Danny's guy - he will end up in Boston eventually. Period.
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Post by NYCelt Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:04 pm

Pumpsie Green wrote:
NYCelt wrote:
Pumpsie Green wrote:A deal is a deal. No one can predict how long IT will be out, and the Cavs know that very well. If they try to gain more compensation and I were Ainge, I would no longer offer a first round pick but a second round pick. Then the Cavs are stuck with a malcontent. See how that works out for them.

Pumpsie

Long time!

What's new?

Regards

Not a lot going on with the Celtics until this trade. IMO the Cavs got too much.
Been running a Sox forum NY. It has been a while since I was here.

Pumpsie,

If you're running a Sox forum, I guess you've been having an enjoyable time this season.

Regards
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Post by BleedGreen Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:37 am

mrkleen09 wrote:
BleedGreen wrote:
You said this can still happen NEXT summer when it almost certainly cannot.  

I did not misspeak and of course it can still happen.  

Even if Kyrie goes back to Cleveland and Danny still wants him next summer - all he needs to do is put together a package and make it happen.  I dont get your point, if Kyrie is Danny's guy - he will end up in Boston eventually.  Period.

You don't get my point? That there is a big difference between the words 'sign' and 'trade'

The Celtics cannot sign Irving next summer.

They cannot sign 'anyone they want to' next summer as you said.

You misspoke. I politely pointed that out to you but now your refusal to just say, "oh yeah my bad no cap space and Irving not even a FA" has turned this into something that sounds less than polite.

And do you really think if this trade is voided Irving is going back to the Cavs for this season when he demanded a trade and was obviously happy to be getting one to Boston? He's gone. But on the miniscule chance he mends fences in Cleveland you think they'll just amicably work with Boston on another trade for him NEXT summer? When IT is a free agent we can't use in the deal and the C' s would find it almost impossible to make salaries work $ wise?

Think these things through please.
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Post by mrkleen09 Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:41 am

Thanks for the advice. I will be sure to think things through more in the future Laughing
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Post by bobheckler Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:49 am

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2017/08/kyrie_irving_trade_cavaliers_f.html



Kyrie Irving trade: Cavaliers found nothing different from Boston Celtics' reports in Isaiah Thomas' hip (report)


Posted on August 29, 2017 at 9:34 AM



If the Cavs Rescind... - Page 7 23320695-mmmain
Danny Ainge, Boston Celtics president of basketball operations, gestures as he passes the team's NBA vhampionship banners st the team's training facility in Waltham, Mass., Tuesday,


May 16, 2017. The Celtics had won the NBA draft lottery, capitalizing on a trade they made with the Brooklyn Nets four years ago. (AP Photo/Charles Krupa)(Charles Krupa)


By Tom Westerholm



The Cleveland Cavaliers -- who are reportedly balking at the trade that would send Kyrie Irving to the Boston Celtics in exchange for Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and the 2018 Brooklyn Nets pick -- received no new information from Isaiah Thomas' physical, according to the Boston Herald's Steve Bulpett.

Appearing on The Vertical podcast with Chris Mannix, Bulpett said the Cavaliers weren't surprised by Thomas' medical situation.

"My read is actually from the Cleveland side, and what I hear from there is that nothing they've found is anything different than what was conveyed to the Cavaliers in the trade discussions, and certainly in the medical information that was passed forward," Bulpett told Mannix.

Meanwhile, according to Cleveland.com's Joe Vardon (as well as Bulpett on Mannix's pod), the Cavaliers still haven't actually asked the Celtics for more compensation.

Follow
Joe Vardon ✔ @joevardon
Per a source, as of yesterday afternoon the Cavs had made no request to Boston for more on Kyrie-IT trade
8:06 AM - Aug 28, 2017
35 35 Replies   428 428 Retweets   551 551 likes


So to recap: The Cavaliers are disturbed by Thomas' medical situation, even though they probably knew everything it would say. They reportedly will ask for Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown, which the Celtics will resist. But also, the Cavaliers haven't actually asked for anything yet.


It's a little unclear what Cleveland is trying to accomplish here, or if they even plan to try to accomplish something. Their best-case scenario seems to be to acquire another first-round pick from the Celtics, but if they already knew about Thomas' medical situation, they could have simply tried to negotiate that pick out of the Celtics in the initial trade. Bulpett speculated Cleveland might be having some "trader's remorse."

"I'm not sure whether what's going on is what we see in front of us," Bulpett told Mannix.

It's possible the Cavaliers saw the deal they made -- even receiving the highly coveted Nets pick -- and realized their starting point guard would be either Derrick Rose or Jose Calderon entering a season after which LeBron James will be a free agent. If that is the case, it would be enough to give a team pause, although the Cavaliers probably should have been aware of it before the teams called the deal into the league office.

"I don't know for a fact that the Celtics are frustrated, I haven't spoken to anyone that gives me specifically that impression, but that makes perfect sense, because nothing should have surprised the Cavaliers," Bulpett told Mannix.

We will see if this trade gets any momentum toward being completed today.



bob
MY NOTE:  I am now officially confused.  If the physical showed nothing new what's the hang up, why isn't this deal already done?  It also puts to bed the suggestion that Danny was disingenuous and misrepresented IT's condition.  But, if they haven't made a counter-offer, what's the hang up?  Why isn't this deal already done?


.
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Post by willjr Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:03 am

I wrote in an earlier post that most, if not all, of the drama is coming from the shores of Lake Erie and was due to an inept, meddling owner paired with a cowed, rookie GM. This report and Mr. Kleen's post on how trades go through (section 2, dealing with medical info) only reinforces this in my mind.
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Post by willjr Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:10 am

This will all end up to be much ado about nothing. They tried some sleight of hand and it fooled no one. They can't bring Irving back and they KNOW they won't get a better haul or deal anywhere else than what they got from us.
It has just about gotten to the point where we can say "move along people, there's nothing to see here".
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Post by NYCelt Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:13 am

I'm sure the truth is somewhere in between, as usual.

Most likely IT is in worse shape than Cleveland knew or was disclosed.  Maybe Boston didn't even have recent enough exam results to know exactly.

When it comes down to it, what's Cleveland's choice?  Even if IT is damaged goods, he's an All-Star PG and will return by the playoffs.  They also get Crowder plus a great draft pick, instead of an unhappy PG that thinks his planet is flat.  They've done well either way.

I think the deal will close as is.  Cleveland is simply trying to use unexpected leverage to get more.  I would do the same, and expect any good and experienced deal-maker would do likewise.
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Post by RosalieTCeltics Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:16 am

Gilbert at his worst/best, whatever. He is proving why he is one of the worst owners in basketball. Also, teams around the league are scratching their heads and wondering what he is up to. Makes for alot of talk about something that is virtually done. Teams will think twice about getting involved in a big trade with him if this is going to happen again. All they have done is ruined any credibility they had (?) which is almost zero
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Post by kdp59 Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:18 am

pound sand LeBron!

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Post by NYCelt Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:22 am

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Gilbert at his worst/best, whatever.  He is proving why he is one of the worst owners in basketball. Also, teams around the league are scratching their heads and wondering what he is up to. Makes for alot of talk about something that is virtually done. Teams will think twice about getting involved in a big trade with him if this is going to happen again. All they have done is ruined any credibility they had (?) which is almost zero

Rosalie,

With all due respect, I don't think Gilbert or Cleveland are so unreasonable at all. Check my post above for my reasoning. I think it's just a negotiating tactic that anyone or any team would use if they thought they had a chance to better a deal due to a technicality. I bet Ainge would do the same. I think that the deal will close as is.

Regards
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Post by willjr Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:23 am

[Pound sand LeBron!

And the chances of that sand being on some LA beach seem to be growing more and more with each Cle front office misstep.
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Post by worcester Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:08 pm

One year from now, where will Cleveland be ans where will Boston be, regardless of the trade?... I would much rather be a Celtic than a Cavs fan.


Last edited by worcester on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by bobheckler Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:26 pm

Rumor on the street is that Cleveland is shopping Imam Shumpert and his $10+M contract and, to make someone eat that, they'll need to throw in a draft pick.  That might be what is causing this, it might be part of the next step in Cleveland's strategic plan. They want a certain quality of draft pick from Danny to grease the deal inre Shumpert without having to dip into their own stash.

Having said this, though, think of what that means for Cleveland's future.  If it is true they are shopping Shumpert that pretty much means they have mentally accepted that LeBron, as well as Kyrie, are gone and they are going into rebuild mode.  I love IT and I really like Jae but will those two plus Love be competitive with us?  I say "no".


bob



.
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Post by worcester Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:40 pm

Yep. 2018-19 looking damn good for the Celts in the East.
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Post by RosalieTCeltics Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:21 pm

NY Celt From all that I have read, the rest of the league is watching this with wide open eyes.
The problem i am having and this is causing me to feel the way I do is that they talked to the Celtic doctors, read MRIs, CT Scans, and thought that the prize was not really IT anyway it was that #1 pick. As far as I am concerned I will be shocked if they offer IT a contract next year. This whole thing is a shame. This kid did everything asked of him, got hurt, and now the big payday' he had been looking for may have a different number to it than what he was expecting.

I feel Cleveland is in a tough spot, but I do not feel sorry for them. They were in such a hurry to pull this off that they jumped BEFORE looking. Now they are making it seem as if the Celtics were trying to pull one over on them, As much as I hate what happened to IT this is a deal that will go thru with maybe a 2nd round pick. Anything higher than that and we will all have DA's head on a block. I know Kyrie is super talented but I love loyalty. This is a tough move either way
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Post by dboss Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:05 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:NY Celt  From all that I have read, the rest of the league is watching this with wide open eyes.
The problem i am having and this is causing me to feel the way I do is that they talked to the Celtic doctors, read MRIs, CT Scans, and thought that the prize was not really IT anyway it was that #1 pick.  As far as I am concerned I will be shocked if they offer IT a contract next year. This whole thing is a shame. This kid did everything asked of him, got hurt, and now the big payday' he had been looking for may have a different number to it than what he was expecting.

I feel Cleveland is in a tough spot, but I do not feel sorry for them. They were in such a hurry to pull this off that they jumped BEFORE  looking.  Now they are making it seem as if the Celtics were trying to pull one over on them,  As much as I hate what happened to IT this is a deal that will go thru with maybe a 2nd round pick.  Anything higher than that and we will all have DA's head on a block. I know Kyrie is super talented but I love loyalty.  This is a tough move either way

Agree 100%

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Post by red16russ11 Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:09 pm

CLE will be fine this year. Rose and IT with Smith, LeBron, Crowder, Love, Thompson et al will still be our toughest competition. They will add Wade, or Melo, or both, and have one final run.

Also, I do not understand why everyone thinks LeBron is:
a) leaving CLE
b)automatically going to LAL.

If he wants to keep winning, he should stay where he is. The cap moves any team will have to make may be prohibitive. And, the Clips have at least as good a shot at LeBron and the lakers. Say he opts in, like Chris Paul, LAC could offer CLE Gallinari, Rivers and draft picks for LeBron.
The lakers, contrary to popular belief, have room for ONE max deal next summer. Yes, they can get to two. "All" that would take would be:
trading Clarkson during the year for an expiring deal
letting Caldwell-Pope and Lopez leave for nothing
stretch Deng
not offer Randle the QO.

So BOTH Paul George and LeBron (who play the same position) are going to leave their current teams to play with Ball, Kuzma, Ingram (who plays the same position), Nance Jr. and Zubac?????

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me.
Adding JUST LeBron or JUST George? Sure, they become much better.
Not a foregone conclusion in my book.
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Post by tjmakz Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:24 pm

red16russ11 wrote:CLE will be fine this year.  Rose and IT with Smith, LeBron, Crowder, Love, Thompson et al will still be our toughest competition.  They will add Wade, or Melo, or both, and have one final run.

Also, I do not understand why everyone thinks LeBron is:
a) leaving CLE
b)automatically going to LAL.

If he wants to keep winning, he should stay where he is.  The cap moves any team will have to make may be prohibitive.  And, the Clips have at least as good a shot at LeBron and the lakers.  Say he opts in, like Chris Paul, LAC could offer CLE Gallinari, Rivers and draft picks for LeBron.
The lakers, contrary to popular belief, have room for ONE max deal next summer.  Yes, they can get to two.  "All" that would take would be:
trading Clarkson during the year for an expiring deal
letting Caldwell-Pope and Lopez leave for nothing
stretch Deng
not offer Randle the QO.

So BOTH Paul George and LeBron (who play the same position) are going to leave their current teams to play with Ball, Kuzma, Ingram (who plays the same position), Nance Jr. and Zubac?????

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me.
Adding JUST LeBron or JUST George?  Sure, they become much better.
Not a foregone conclusion in my book.

Not every Lakers fan is hot and heavy for Lebron.
If he wants to sign with the Lakers, great, I'd love to have him.
At some point he has to start wearing down.
I would be just as happy with Westbrook and George.
It sure is interesting that Westbrook still has not signed his $207m super-max contract.

LA will probably trade Clarkson for a draft pick and stretch Deng's final 2 years.
They will have room for two max players (Lebron, Westbrook, George, Cousins, etc)
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Post by red16russ11 Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:04 pm

tjmakz wrote:
red16russ11 wrote:CLE will be fine this year.  Rose and IT with Smith, LeBron, Crowder, Love, Thompson et al will still be our toughest competition.  They will add Wade, or Melo, or both, and have one final run.

Also, I do not understand why everyone thinks LeBron is:
a) leaving CLE
b)automatically going to LAL.

If he wants to keep winning, he should stay where he is.  The cap moves any team will have to make may be prohibitive.  And, the Clips have at least as good a shot at LeBron and the lakers.  Say he opts in, like Chris Paul, LAC could offer CLE Gallinari, Rivers and draft picks for LeBron.
The lakers, contrary to popular belief, have room for ONE max deal next summer.  Yes, they can get to two.  "All" that would take would be:
trading Clarkson during the year for an expiring deal
letting Caldwell-Pope and Lopez leave for nothing
stretch Deng
not offer Randle the QO.

So BOTH Paul George and LeBron (who play the same position) are going to leave their current teams to play with Ball, Kuzma, Ingram (who plays the same position), Nance Jr. and Zubac?????

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me.
Adding JUST LeBron or JUST George?  Sure, they become much better.
Not a foregone conclusion in my book.

Not every Lakers fan is hot and heavy for Lebron.
If he wants to sign with the Lakers, great, I'd love to have him.
At some point he has to start wearing down.
I would be just as happy with Westbrook and George.
It sure is interesting that Westbrook still has not signed his $207m super-max contract.

LA will probably trade Clarkson for a draft pick and stretch Deng's final 2 years.
They will have room for two max players (Lebron, Westbrook, George, Cousins, etc)

What would you do with Ball if you got Westbrook, and what would you do with Ingram if you got George? Are not these two the "future" of the lakers?

I hope they both stay in OKC.
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Post by tjmakz Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:12 pm

red16russ11 wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
red16russ11 wrote:CLE will be fine this year.  Rose and IT with Smith, LeBron, Crowder, Love, Thompson et al will still be our toughest competition.  They will add Wade, or Melo, or both, and have one final run.

Also, I do not understand why everyone thinks LeBron is:
a) leaving CLE
b)automatically going to LAL.

If he wants to keep winning, he should stay where he is.  The cap moves any team will have to make may be prohibitive.  And, the Clips have at least as good a shot at LeBron and the lakers.  Say he opts in, like Chris Paul, LAC could offer CLE Gallinari, Rivers and draft picks for LeBron.
The lakers, contrary to popular belief, have room for ONE max deal next summer.  Yes, they can get to two.  "All" that would take would be:
trading Clarkson during the year for an expiring deal
letting Caldwell-Pope and Lopez leave for nothing
stretch Deng
not offer Randle the QO.

So BOTH Paul George and LeBron (who play the same position) are going to leave their current teams to play with Ball, Kuzma, Ingram (who plays the same position), Nance Jr. and Zubac?????

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me.
Adding JUST LeBron or JUST George?  Sure, they become much better.
Not a foregone conclusion in my book.

Not every Lakers fan is hot and heavy for Lebron.
If he wants to sign with the Lakers, great, I'd love to have him.
At some point he has to start wearing down.
I would be just as happy with Westbrook and George.
It sure is interesting that Westbrook still has not signed his $207m super-max contract.

LA will probably trade Clarkson for a draft pick and stretch Deng's final 2 years.
They will have room for two max players (Lebron, Westbrook, George, Cousins, etc)

What would you do with Ball if you got Westbrook, and what would you do with Ingram if you got George?  Are not these two the "future" of the lakers?

I hope they both stay in OKC.

LA would play Westbrook and Ball at the guard positions.
They would make it work for a superstar in Westbrook.
Ingram and George would play the forward/wing positions.
When George made it known he wants to sign with the Lakers next summer, I'm pretty sure George knew Ingram was already on the roster.
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Post by red16russ11 Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:39 pm

Westbrook, Ball, Ingram, George and Zubac?

Watch out GSW......voice dripping with sarcasm
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Post by tjmakz Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:44 pm

red16russ11 wrote:Westbrook, Ball, Ingram, George and Zubac?

Watch out GSW......voice dripping with sarcasm

What more could they do next summer for you to give them an ounce of credit?
That would be a huge haul in one summer.
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Post by red16russ11 Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:58 pm

tjmakz wrote:
red16russ11 wrote:Westbrook, Ball, Ingram, George and Zubac?

Watch out GSW......voice dripping with sarcasm

What more could they do next summer for you to give them an ounce of credit?
That would be a huge haul in one summer.

I don't know, it's not next summer yet.............are you at least open to the prospect that they could get shut out AGAIN from major free agents.


I'll give them credit when/if that happens......which I highly doubt.
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Post by tjmakz Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:19 pm

red16russ11 wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
red16russ11 wrote:Westbrook, Ball, Ingram, George and Zubac?

Watch out GSW......voice dripping with sarcasm

What more could they do next summer for you to give them an ounce of credit?
That would be a huge haul in one summer.

I don't know, it's not next summer yet.............are you at least open to the prospect that they could get shut out AGAIN from major free agents.


I'll give them credit when/if that happens......which I highly doubt.  

Yes, the Lakers could absolutely be shut out from major free agents.
Growth this season could mean a lot for next seasons free agents.
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