Hayward Opts OUT

Ditto

Anyone know what the Celtics record was last season with Gordon playing vs him not playing?

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:There are a lot of things yet unknown.  But there is one thing we do know.  Danny lost yet another max level player and has nothing to show for it.

With the Batum waiving Danny has no pathway to get anything for GH.  Nothing!

And just think, I was calling Danny a genius.  Man accolades should not be thrown around like so many draft picks.

The stench of this episode is way beyond what any Celtics fan should have to endure.

Time for Ainge to go. I just read a lengthy piece on Joe Lacob and the Warriors. No way does this kind of crap happen on their watch.
BTW, Serge Ibaka may be available. Let’s see if Danny and Wyc screw that up too. I’m done with them.

If it is confirmed that Danny could have made the deal but killed it by asking for too much then Danny should be sent packing.

GH delayed his option decision why?  I think it was tied to giving Danny a opportunity to get something done.  

Sooner or latter all GM's and coaches have to go.  It is not a lifetime appointment like a judge.

Maybe it is time for a change.  Maybe it is time to say goodbye to Stevens as well.  Maybe it is not.  

I think the clock is ticking for both of them.  Their saving grace may be the fact that this is still a damn good team.

If they were both fired tomorrow however, I would not shed a single tear.  Just like I did not shed a tear for all the players who have come and gone.  They are no better.

Just curious. How come Jordan had no problem giving Hayward 30mil per and wouldn’t pay Kemba that?

MJ knew about Kemba's knees.

Charlotte has wanted to pick up Hayward before. Hayward was supposedly sold and they almost got him a few years back until Utah stepped in to retain him. Certainly must be they think the injuries haven’t dropped his value by much and he still likes the idea of playing there.

I guess winter in Charlotte has it’s advantages over winter in Boston. Kind parting note to Boston posted by Hayward’s wife today. Nice gesture.

Hayward had a contract offer 3 years ago for 96 million but backed out

Hayward and his wife are classy. He did the right thing for his family.

worcester wrote:MJ knew about Kemba's knees.

And somehow completely missed out on Hayward's injury list


KJ

Everyone assumes that Indiana was willing to pay Hawyard $30M per year. I do NOT make that assumption.

the supposed deal may have fallen apart because the Pacers were looking at him for a lower salary and/or less years.

Charlotte gave him 4years fully guaranteed. I doubt any other team was offering Hayward anything close to that $120M.

he went where he was going to get paid. Hope he likes losing, because he's gonna get a lot of that there...hope that $20M extra makes it all OK for him.

MJ may think bad knees are incurable whereas Gordon's injuries are not.

worcester wrote:MJ may think bad knees are incurable whereas Gordon's injuries are not.

Exactly. Gordon has had a bunch of unrelated freak injuries.

As you guys have said repeatedly...GH was offered Al Horford mad money. MJ had it to offer.

We all would have run to the second graveyard of the NBA on the next flight out of Boston! Who cares about basketball at that point?! $120M for 4 years guaranteed? Where do I sign?!!

db

This is from the NY Daily News, courtesy of Steve3344,

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/ny-gordon-hayward-hornets-lamelo-ball-20201121-cmeo6aphpbbsjj4mtwid5kolxe-story.html



Hornets massively overpaid for Gordon Hayward, but it’s not quite as bad as you think


By KRISTIAN WINFIELD
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS |

NOV 21, 2020 AT 6:03 PM


On today’s episode of Good Idea, Bad Idea, we have the Charlotte Hornets, who overpaid to acquire veteran forward Gordon Hayward, then paid even more to clear cap space to sign him.

The Hornets agreed to terms on a four-year, $120 million deal with Hayward, but they did not have the cap space outright to sign him. What Charlotte did to create that space was one of the more questionable decisions of this early offseason: They waived Nicolas Batum, who is owed $27 million in the final year of his deal.


Why is that questionable?

When you waive a player, their salary doesn’t just miraculously clear from the payroll. When they chose to part ways with Batum right now, the Hornets had two options: assume $27 million worth of dead salary this season, or stretch that $27 million over three years, or $9 million a year through the course of the 2022-23 season.

Charlotte chose the latter, meaning an average of $30 million a year to acquire Hayward truly costs $39 million through the next three seasons. That’s a tough pill to swallow for a senescent offensive talent approaching the latter stretch of his prime years -- no matter good a fit he may be in Buzz City.

The Hornets had other options, and they may have explored them: They could have created cap space attaching a draft asset to Cody Zeller’s contract.

Zeller’s expiring deal worth $15 million this season is much more palatable than Batum’s albatross salary. He is a serviceable center, but serviceable centers are a dime a dozen.

Charlotte had another option: Clear space by moving Terry Rozier, who is owed close to $37 million over the next two seasons. Rozier’s role projects to diminish with the Hornets selecting LaMelo Ball No. 3 overall in this year’s draft, and the sudden rise of lightning-rod point guard Devonte’ Graham. Rozier, however, shot 40% on nearly seven three-point attempts per game. He has potential as a spot-up shooter to space the floor for Ball’s play-making despite his undersized frame.


Is there a positive to stretching Batum’s contract?

Aside from creating the cap space to sign Hayward, the Hornets now project to have somewhere between $7-8 million in newfound cap space to sign additional free agents, though the market has dried significantly with players signing contracts elsewhere. They will also have the room mid-level exception of a two-year deal worth roughly $10 million. That deal can be split among a number of players.


So $147 million to sign Gordon Hayward?

Like I said: a tough pill to swallow; questionable at best.

There aren’t that many players of Hayward’s height and shooting ability, and teams overpay for them all the time. The Philadelphia 76ers gave Tobias Harris five years, $180 million in a deal they probably wouldn’t hand out again.

But the Hornets are not the Sixers. They live on the short end of a separate pro sports reality: Certain small-market franchises will always have to overpay for high-level talent. Charlotte happens to have done this twice: First with what they thought was a high-level talent in Batum; second by shedding Batum’s salary to sign Hayward.

In the best possible case, the Hornets are doing something they failed to do in the Kemba Walker era.

In eight years in Charlotte, Walker’s best teammate was Al Jefferson, and the skilled big man only gave him one season of 20 and 10 numbers. From there, the Hornets tried and failed, miserably, surrounding their star guard with middling talent: Batum, Jeremy Lamb, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Marvin Williams.


The Hornets just hit the most expensive double of the offseason

In the blink of an eye, Charlotte is more interesting than it’s ever been under Michael Jordan.

Ball is now the face of the franchise, and in his first press conference with local media, he prioritized winning over everything else. Adding Hayward — despite the cost — unequivocally helps the Hornets’ odds in the win column.

The truth of the matter is this: The Hornets ate $27 million in cap space over the next three years to finally get back on base as a franchise. First base was not overthinking the draft and selecting the best available talent at pick No. 3. Second base was getting that talent some legitimate help.

Hayward may not be the same star he was in Utah, but he is still an elite offensive talent capable of generating offense for himself and his teammates. He averaged 17.5 points, six rebounds and four assists in a bounce-back season with the Celtics but was never the best fit sandwiched between two stardom-bound young forwards in Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown.

Ball-to-Charlotte is the most exciting thing this franchise has experienced since drafting Walker in 2013, and the Hornets just got their new star the best teammate he’s ever played with.

They also have a handful of young, talented players to build around: Graham; two-way, high-flying wing Miles Bridges; and last year’s first-round pick, PJ Washington out of Kentucky.

Zeller will become a free agent next offseason, clearing $15.5 million from the payroll should the Hornets decide against retaining him.


Bob


.

It just shows that money is more important than winning, even though many players say otherwise.

Gordon's usage will have to increase, so let's hold off saying his injury won't affect him long term until we have long term proof.

Does anyone see the irony of Gordon going to Charlotte?  Him and Rozier didn't exactly get along in Boston.  MJ must have known this.

I can see Rozier acting up again when his usage drops, with Ball and Gordon handling the ball more. Do the Hornets now have to move Rosier to avoid that potential shit show?

I did see Rozier's welcoming tweet, let's just wait for the inevitable shoe to drop.

This signing is another reason why the Hornets will continue to be the doormat of the NBA.

dbrown4 wrote:As you guys have said repeatedly...GH was offered Al Horford mad money.  MJ had it to offer.  

We all would have run to the second graveyard of the NBA on the next flight out of Boston!  Who cares about basketball at that point?!  $120M for 4 years guaranteed?  Where do I sign?!!

db  

For damn sure.

I take care of my family and probably my grandkids.
I spend half the year in a dynamic, growing city with nice climate.
I still play the game I love in it’s highest league.
I’m going to be top dog there.

For this he perhaps sacrifices what; a possible shot at a title? And on a team that would be strongly challenged to accomplish that goal in his new deal? With a good chance if he ever gets to title contention it’s with reduced playing time as a secondary rotation player?

For damn sure.

I respect Hayward for the class he displayed in his time as a Celtic and wish it had worked out better for him and the team. It’s too bad, however, that the team couldn’t find a way to truly capitalize on his choice.

I guess there is nothing more to say about this, other than one thing.....I truly believe Hayward owed the Celtics a last year, hopefully healthy, after all that has gone down. I know, I know, it is a business, but he collected millions of dollars from them while not stepping on the court. Just this last season, who knows, he could have rebuilt his reputation here and moved on as a winner, That is why I feel bad for the way this went down. At a time when there were teams looking to grab him at the deadline, Danny gave him the shot to help steer this team in the right direction. Who knows?

I know I will be lectured that this is a business and that he was looking out for the welfare of his family. Here is where the wheels fall off for me. Good luck to him, hope he and Terry kiss and make up, the last I heard, The Clippers were making a run for Rozier, so he may not even be there on opening night

The pressure is all on Hayward now, no Tatum, Brown, Walker to help him out, he is the MAN

For his sake, I hope it works out for him

Just like a bedtime story to the kiddies, we leave them with

"and that's the end"

https://www.radio.com/weei/sports/celtics/gordon-haywards-departure-not-as-simple-as-ainge-blew-it?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter



Why Gordon Hayward's departure isn't as simple as 'Danny Ainge blew it'


By Scott McLaughlin

20 hours ago


Gordon Hayward is gone, leaving the Celtics to reportedly sign a four-year, $120 million deal with the Charlotte Hornets.

With the Charlotte Observer reporting that the Hornets will waive Nic Batum to create the cap space needed to fit Hayward, it looks like there will be no sign-and-trade and therefore nothing coming back to Boston. (UPDATE: A Boston Globe report Saturday night suggests a sign-and-trade is still on the table.)

The instant reaction to the news Saturday was predictable: "Danny Ainge blew it."

Given all the reports there had been about a possible sign-and-trade with the Pacers, that reaction was understandable.

Hayward was reportedly "fully focused" on going home to Indiana. The Boston Globe's Gary Washburn reported that the Pacers had offered Myles Turner and Doug McDermott in a sign-and-trade, but that Ainge wanted Turner and either T.J. Warren or Victor Oladipo instead.

So, it's easy for the narrative to turn into Ainge being greedy. He had a pretty solid offer on the table, played hardball to try to get more, and in the meantime Hayward decided to sign elsewhere, leaving Ainge with nothing.

If that is what happened, then yes, Ainge deserves criticism. But here's the thing: As of right now -- 3:20 p.m. on Saturday afternoon -- that is a big if.

We don't know if that's how it played out. We don't know if Hayward was fully ready to sign whatever deal the Pacers were offering Friday night, the Pacers were fully ready to pull the trigger on a trade, and all that was left to make it official was Ainge saying, "Yes."

Hayward may have still been listening on other offers. He may have still been negotiating contract details with Indiana. The Pacers may have still been discussing what they would've given up in a trade. A report of an offer being on the table doesn't mean it's a fact that one had formally been sent over.

Regardless, it seems that at some point Friday night, Hornets owner Michael Jordan called Hayward and sealed the deal to bring Hayward to Charlotte.

There had already been reports that the Hornets had interest in Hayward, so it's not like this came out of nowhere. That phone call from Jordan almost certainly wasn't the first contact between the two sides.

As long as a team with cap space was an option for Hayward, there was a possibility of the Celtics getting nothing in return for him.

Contrary to what some seem to believe, it was Hayward who had all the leverage, not Ainge.

Ainge only had leverage if Hayward did in fact have his heart set on Indiana. The Pacers didn't have the cap space to sign Hayward on their own, so they would've had to execute a sign-and-trade and send something to the Celtics in return.

The Hornets -- or Knicks or Hawks, for that matter -- didn't have to do that. They had the cap space to sign Hayward on their own without having to involve the Celtics, or to at least fairly easily create the necessary cap space to do so, which is what the Hornets did by waiving Batum.

So if the Pacers' offer to Hayward wasn't all that close to the Hornets' -- and there's reason to believe it wasn't -- and Hayward decided to just take the biggest offer, then there's really nothing Ainge could've done.

At that point, it's either let him walk or try to match Charlotte yourself and keep him. And you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who thinks paying a 30-year-old, injury-prone Hayward $30 million a season for the next four years -- reportedly all guaranteed, by the way -- would've been a good investment for the Celtics.

This is similar to what happened with Al Horford last year, when he opted out of his Celtics contract and signed a four-year, $109 million deal with the 76ers, with Ainge unwilling to match.

It's easy to be upset about getting nothing in return, but when badly overpaying is the only alternative, wouldn't you rather not overpay? The Sixers have already moved on from Horford after just one season because they realized their mistake.

Maybe you could criticize Ainge for putting player options in contracts in the first place, but those are in pretty much every big contract in the NBA now. You probably wouldn't have landed Horford or Hayward in the first place without them.

And a player option means the player is in charge, which Hayward was through this whole process.

It was Hayward's choice to become a free agent, not Ainge's. And it was Hayward's choice to take the monster contract from Charlotte rather than a presumably lesser offer from Indiana that would've landed the Celtics something in return, not Ainge's.


Bob


.

It's easy to be upset about getting nothing in return, but when badly overpaying is the only alternative, wouldn't you rather not overpay?

I'll just leave it at that.

I don't understand the anger at Hayward or Ainge. When GH signed with the Cs he was joining a team where he would be first or second option. Now, without Irving and Horford, he's fourth. There's no way a player of his caliber is satisfied with that unless there is a ring at the end of the season. And there's no way we could have paid him $30M a year to be the fourth option for four years. Especially when you have to start paying two and three what they're worth. Yes, it might have been nice to get something for him but that's not the way it worked out. For the first three years the team holds the cards but when that option comes up it switches. As for the offers that were or were not made, there's no better waste of time than speculating on what went on behind closed doors unless you're a reporter who gets paid to do that. I was a fan of what GH brought to the team as a leader on the floor. But that's not the way the cards fell. As it works out we get a decent center and a decent BU PG. Hardly a disaster.

gyso wrote:It's easy to be upset about getting nothing in return, but when badly overpaying is the only alternative, wouldn't you rather not overpay?

I'll just leave it at that.

gyso the GH experience blew up in the lab at the jump. We needed center help and we got that because GH left. The full MLE gave the Celtics a soft landing but only because Danny had a plan on how to use it asap.

Actually I was never a big fan of Turner but resigned myself to what appeared to be the inevitable. I like the 2 year closed end lease on Thompson along with the rebounding that he brings to our frontline, something turner is not know for.

It does not really matter much on how things start. It's the end game that matters. The wide open 3 was not there but the sidestep 3 went swish!

Each year we look forward to new beginnings.

Had we done a sign and trade with Indy for Turner and McDermott, what would we have taken on in their salaries? $25M for Turner and $9M for McDermott? Are those numbers correct? Would that have put us into the luxury tax? Instead we paid $9.5M for TT and $3.5M for Jeff Teague..so now instead of dishing out $34M plus tax we spend $13M with no tax. Which two players give us the better team without even factoring in the finances? Perhaps the latter pair. Maybe we did not fare so badly after all. Also, we now have two players on the roster with initials JT.

atcross wrote:I don't understand the anger at Hayward or Ainge. When GH signed with the Cs he was joining a team where he would be first or second option. Now, without Irving and Horford, he's fourth. There's no way a player of his caliber is satisfied with that unless there is a ring at the end of the season. And there's no way we could have paid him $30M a year to be the fourth option for four years. Especially when you have to start paying two and three what they're worth. Yes, it might have been nice to get something for him but that's not the way it worked out. For the first three years the team holds the cards but when that option comes up it switches. As for the offers that were or were not made, there's no better waste of time than speculating on what went on behind closed doors unless you're a reporter who gets paid to do that. I was a fan of what GH brought to the team as a leader on the floor. But that's not the way the cards fell. As it works out we get a decent center and a decent BU PG. Hardly a disaster.

I always liked GH but I am not remotely angry that he went elsewhere. Danny salvaged what was setting up as a disaster so I am not angry at him either.

I want to see this team come together and improve on how they played last season and I think that they will.

worcester wrote:Had we done a sign and trade with Indy for Turner and McDermott, what would we have taken on in  their salaries? $25M for Turner and $9M for McDermott? Are those numbers correct? Would that have put us into the luxury tax? Instead we paid $9.5M for TT and $3.5M for Jeff Teague..so now instead of dishing out $34M plus tax we spend $13M with no tax. Which two players give us the better team without even factoring in the finances? Perhaps the latter pair. Maybe we did not fare so badly after all. Also, we now have two players on the roster with initials JT.

So you're saying that Danny Ainge has gone back to being a transactional genius?

I don't think it is an either/or situation. I think he had to show patience when things were not in his control and then jump fast when the situation changed and things went back being under his control.

I don't think we fans know what really happens in the GM's office. We like to think we do and often get caught up in our assumptions emotionally.