Hayward Opts OUT

I do have to admit that I got extremely antsy when waiting out the GH situation. All the free agent transactions were happening while we sat and sat and sat.

Danny Ainge was trying to make lemonade out of it and in the end, it turned out all right.

gyso wrote:I do have to admit that I got extremely antsy when waiting out the GH situation.  All the free agent transactions were happening while we sat and sat and sat.  

Danny Ainge was trying to make lemonade out of it and in the end, it turned out all right.  

Teague and Thompson are solid pick ups. We all will just have to wait and see how they pan out.


KJ

Why was it Danny's fault that Indiana set a price, Charlotte one upped them, and walked away with Gordon Let's let it go, and move on to the next season.

I saw a video of Bob Ryan/Jeff Goodman, they were very very excited about our #1 pick. So I am so anxious to get him in the gym and start working out with the other players. won't be long before Dec 1 is here!!


GO CELTICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I realize Danny was not being greedy at all. For $34M plus tax he wanted value, and adding TJ or Oledipo to Turner would have created the value worth the cost. Turner plus McDermott...not worth the price. He made the right choice getting TT and JT for $13M.

worcester wrote:Had we done a sign and trade with Indy for Turner and McDermott, what would we have taken on in  their salaries? $25M for Turner and $9M for McDermott? Are those numbers correct? Would that have put us into the luxury tax? Instead we paid $9.5M for TT and $3.5M for Jeff Teague..so now instead of dishing out $34M plus tax we spend $13M with no tax. Which two players give us the better team without even factoring in the finances? Perhaps the latter pair. Maybe we did not fare so badly after all. Also, we now have two players on the roster with initials JT.

That is a good question worcester. As far as I can see Turner ~17.5M and McDermott ~7.5M so total of 25M. With shedding Kanter's 5M and that is almost 10M from Hayward's 34.x M wouldn't we have been below the tax so able to use the mid level?

Vankisa, Gyso would know the tax structure. I don't. SO Turner is $17.5M? McD $7.5M?nWe still saved $12M. Not that it would help our own personal bank accounts!

gyso wrote:It's easy to be upset about getting nothing in return, but when badly overpaying is the only alternative, wouldn't you rather not overpay?

I'll just leave it at that.

Exactly, what a boneheaded decision by Jordan, GH is already damaged goods and sadly has been injury prone since we signed him. I don’t see this being a good fit, as GH will take away playing time from Bridges and Rozier. How do you give that kind of contract to a player with so many limitations/injury history at 31?

And think about the parting shots Rozier took at Hayward when he left Boston. Now all lovey dovey? How long before Rozier gets moved to another team.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:And think about the parting shots Rozier took at Hayward when he left Boston.  Now all lovey dovey?  How long before Rozier gets moved to another team.

there was talk yesterday that the Clippers wanted Rozier. I'm not sure how they can structure a deal for him...maybe something like..... P. Beverly for Rozier?

we'll see how that plays out, I guess.

some other former Celtics on the move incluse

J., Crowder ended up at Phoenix

Rondo at Atlanta -$15M for TWO YEARS..not $15M per year.

A. Baynes signed with Toronto who desperately needed a big after Both Gasol and Ibaka walked for less money

A. Bradly at Miami now

J. Green at Bkn

M. Morris stayed with the Clippers also.

I think thats all of them

Miami kept Olynk?

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Miami kept Olynk?

Rosalie,

Kelly had a player option in his contract.  He opted in, so Miami had to keep him on their roster.  He is, however, now trade eligible. This happened 4 days ago and he's still there, so who knows? Maybe Pat Riley really wants to keep him?

Bam, Precious, Kelly and Leonard are their bigs. "Bam" and "Precious". Might be the best front court first names in NBA history. For a full name I'm still sticking with BisMACK BiiiyOOOOMMMMMMBOOOOO!!!!

Seriously, carrying 4 centers isn't crazy. We carried 4 ourselves last year. One of them, Poirier, didn't play but that how insurance works. You have it in place "just in case".


Bob


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My thinking on this business with Charlotte is that they really do not want to do a sign and trade with Boston. I think this is over and he walked for virtually nothing. But, this is not totally Ainge's fault. That agent knew just what he was doing, he knew he could get Charlotte to bite it was just how big a bite. Indiana has to feel a little bit betrayed here too. Business,,,,that is what they call it. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Hope they took out an insurance policy on Hayward, one never knows!

So many people were upset that Danny did not bite on Precious. I do not know much about him or his ability, I do know that there are many many people who feel Danny drafted a potential starter in Nesmith (at some point) Bob Ryan went nuts when they made the pick, and he is usually reserved unless they are a real dog. So I am anxious to see this kid play. Time, that is all we have now. And I am not so sure Danny is done

RosalieTCeltics wrote:My thinking on this business with Charlotte is that they really do not want to do a sign and trade with Boston.  I think this is over and he walked for virtually nothing.  But, this is not totally Ainge's fault.  That agent knew just what he was doing, he knew he could get Charlotte to bite it was just how big a bite.  Indiana has to feel a little bit betrayed here too.  Business,,,,that is what they call it.  It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.  Hope they took out an insurance policy on Hayward, one never knows!

So many people were upset that Danny did not bite on Precious.  I do not know much about him or his ability, I do know that there are many many people who feel Danny drafted a potential starter in Nesmith (at some point)  Bob Ryan went nuts when they made the pick, and he is usually reserved unless they are a real dog.  So I am anxious to see this kid play.  Time, that is all we have now.  And I am not so sure Danny is done

Rosalie,

We had two glaring needs:  scoring and big.  Danny had the #14 pick.  He could only pick one of them and Nesmith has consistently been the more highly rated/ranked of the two.  Could Danny have packaged #26 and #30 and moved up to #19 to get Precious too (Achiuwa was picked #20 by Miami, so Danny would have had to scoot in front of Riley)?  I doubt it.  The Knicks packaged #27 plus #38 to move up 4 spots to #23.  Could Danny have moved up 7 spots?  Hard to see it happening. The higher you are in the draft the harder it is to move up even more.

So, in the end, we satisfied one of our needs and one is all we should have expected.  The question, then, becomes "which hole would have been better filled through the draft and which one through free agency and/or trades?".  Even 10 years ago I would have said getting a quality big would have been harder but the NBA has changed.  Bigs are now a dime-a-dozen (e.g. Baynes is on the move again, Kelly and Leonard are both picking up their player options, Detroit let Christian Wood go and went for the two-dimensional Mason Plumlee instead, Kanter opted into his player option even though it was for only $5M) because they are perceived as dinosaurs but nobody wants to give up a good shooter without getting serious compensation in return (see Warren, TJ).


Bob


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I say one thing, thank God he did not even consider Drummond, now there is a big dinosaur. He is a good player, but immobile in alot of ways. Did not want him. I am over the other player who left us, it is a shame but..that chapter is closed and a new one beginning. Who knows, maybe we struck gold with this kid. Pritchard seems pretty solid.

I am surprised Tacko signed another two way contract. He had made the statement that he did not want to do that again. By doing this, it shows me that they feel he has something to give with more training. Waters? that is another ? for me.

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/11/gordon-hayward-rumors-boston-celtics-indiana-pacers-offered-at-least-100-million-myles-turner-may-have-been-stumbling-block-report.html



Gordon Hayward rumors: Boston Celtics, Indiana Pacers offered at least $100 million, Myles Turner may have been stumbling block (report)



Updated 3:55 PM; Today 3:46 PM


By John Karalis | JKaralis@masslive.com



Gordon Hayward is about to become a member of the Charlotte Hornets, a sentence that remains surprising to many Boston Celtics fans.

It turns out it’s surprising to NBA insiders as well.

On the latest Lowe Post podcast, ESPN’s Zach Lowe and 538′s Chris Herring expressed a bit of shock that the Boston Celtics and Indiana Pacers couldn’t pull off their rumored sign-and-trade.

“I thought all along that Indiana has just too many contracts between $6 million and $20 million for there not to be a deal that makes sense here for both sides, if the Pacers really wanted Gordon Hayward,” Lowe said. “I just thought in the end, after a long game of chicken, there would be a common ground found.”


It turns out there was never enough time for that long game of chicken, as the Hornets came it with a late offer that was too good pass up. The general consensus is that Charlotte overpaid Hayward by about $20 million, but that overpays are how teams like Charlotte get the players they want.

However, if Hayward truly wanted to go to Indiana or stay in Boston, it appears he could have gotten a deal that wasn’t too far off from Charlotte’s offer.

“If you want the clown the contract, that’s fine. Just know that’s it’s not like the Pacers and the Celtics were offering $80 million,” Lowe said. “They weren’t offering $120 (million), but my best intel is something like 105, 108, 102, 110. It’s not like the delta was so huge.”

Now comes the grey area of how much truth there was to Hayward’s desire to go to Indiana, and how far along trade talks went. There are rumors that Hayward was willing to take a hometown discount, but those fall flat in the face of this report. If Indiana was truly his number one option and he was willing to take less, then he certainly could have waited to see how these negotiations panned out.


There is a loud contingent of fans and media who believe it’s Ainge’s fault that he didn’t accept what the Pacers were offering in order to get something in exchange for Hayward. It turns out Ainge simply didn’t like what that was going to be.

“I think, really, talking to people and reading the tea leaves as best I could, it really comes down to the Celtics didn’t want Myles Turner,” Lowe said, later adding “I did hear from some teams around the league that the Celtics have done some preliminary research on what Myles Turner’s trade value would have been to them had they acquired him either in this deal or in a separate deal and obviously didn’t like what they saw.”

Perhaps Ainge overplayed his hand, or maybe he just thought he had more time to negotiate. Charlotte’s offer was better than anyone else’s but they still have some cap maneuvering to do before they can actually fit Hayward into their cap space. It’s possible Ainge didn’t see them as a real threat and was trying to get more wing help in a Hayward deal because he knew he could get a big at a better value.

“They made a conscious choice that ‘I’d rather have Tristan Thompson at nine-and-a-half (million) and nine-and-a-half, than Myles Turner at 18, 18, 18,” Lowe said. “I think that’s really interesting and it’s not the choice I expected Boston to make.”

The Celtics and Hornets continue to try to hammer out a sign-and-trade of their own, so it could still work out well for Boston. However we got to this point, it seemed to happen quickly, and it took more than a few people by surprise.


Bob
MY NOTE: This is why waiting is so hard, but so worth it. With time comes clarity.

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https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/11/why-a-gordon-hayward-sign-and-trade-is-so-important-for-the-boston-celtics.html


Why a Gordon Hayward sign-and-trade is so important for the Boston Celtics



Updated 11:12 AM; Today 10:40 AM


By John Karalis | JKaralis@masslive.com



The hand-wringing over Gordon Hayward’s decision to sign with the Charlotte Hornets came instantly.

How did Danny Ainge let Hayward go for nothing?!?

It’s understandable, in a way, because letting Hayward walk and get nothing in return would be a bit of a disaster for the Boston Celtics. He’d be the third big free agent, joining Al Horford and Kyrie Irving, to bolt with nothing to show for it.

But hope for a return on Hayward’s departure isn’t lost just yet. Ainge and the Celtics are working on a sign-and-trade that could still send Hayward to Charlotte for his desired price. In return, Boston could get something big.


Here’s why it’s so important for the Celtics to pull off a sign-and-trade for Gordon Hayward:


1: The Celtics could find a way to snag a star right away

If there’s one thing Ainge won’t do is sit idly by as someone decides to leave town. He tried to work a sign-and-trade of Irving to Brooklyn last season, but a division rival wasn’t too keen on helping the Celtics. He then pivoted to Kemba Walker, taking advantage of Charlotte’s refusal to pay him. He convinced the Hornets to take Terry Rozier in a double sign-and-trade that helped mitigate the loss of two key starters.

Things obviously worked out pretty well for Boston. Even though fans were upset in the moment of an Eastern Conference Finals loss, the addition of Walker and his role in the growth of Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown was critical in getting the Celtics further in the playoffs even after losing Horford and Irving.

Scanning the NBA landscape, there’s one obvious target who wants out of his situation: James Harden.

This is the more ambitious of the two routes, but there is a path to bringing in a star like Harden, and the first step is convincing Charlotte to structure Hayward’s contract so it descends in value. Instead of a normal four-year, $120 million deal that starts about about $28 million and goes up by 5% every year, they could structure it so the first year is $33.5 million and it drops by 5% every year.


The advantage to Charlotte is that Hayward gives back a little cap space over time. The advantage to Boston is that $33.5 million is within matching range of Harden’s $41.2 million salary.

That, of course, is step one of many for the Celtics. They would have to find a package within this structure that appeals to Houston. They would have to find the right amount of picks and young players that Houston wants to make all of this work, making this option very complicated. It’s a bit of a long shot, but there is still an outside chance that it comes together.

There is a more likely scenario, though.


2: Create an exception to trade for a star later

Three (or more) team deals are complicated to pull off. It’s much easier for Boston and Charlotte to just figure out a structure for Hayward’s contract that works for both sides and have Boston send Hayward and a draft pick to Charlotte for nothing to create a traded player exception (TPE).

Because Charlotte is under the cap and can create the room to absorb Hayward’s contract, normal salary matching rules don’t apply. In collective bargaining agreement parlance, this is called a non-simultaneous trade. Think of it as a three-team trade with the ability to figure out the third team later on. The Celtics would send Charlotte some sort incentive, most likely a draft pick, to make this happen.

Let’s use the $33.5 million number again, because it maximizes the possibilities for Boston. What that number actually becomes is still to be determined. The important thing to know is the size of the first year of Hayward’s contract is the size of the TPE.

If the Hornets structure a contract where the money is front-loaded like this, Boston will get a $33.5 million TPE. It’s basically an empty bucket that can be filled with $33.5 million in salary. Boston has a year to use it, and then it goes away. It can be split into pieces, but it can’t be combined with anything.

So if a player making $33.5 million or less becomes available at the trade deadline, the Celtics can suddenly be a player without having to send out matching salaries. That’s not to say they won’t send out assets, but we’re not looking at adding, say, Marcus Smart to a deal because his contract is needed to make the deal work. The $33.5 million TPE is the matching salary.

It can also be carried into the next offseason, which is loaded with high-level free agents. It might not be enough to sign a top-level star, but Jayson Tatum is pretty close to being that for Boston already. What that money could bring is one or two high-quality role players to help fill out the roster.

In that case, Boston would have to negotiate a salary and then work out a sign-and-trade with that player’s old team to make it work. That’s an added layer of negotiation, and getting a player this way would trigger a hard cap, so it does complicate things a bit. But it’s an option the Celtics wouldn’t normally have because they’re over the cap. In essence, this would be a form of cap space.

However it works out, it’s important for Boston to make sure they get at least one of these things done. Losing Hayward for nothing would be very painful. Getting a sign-and-trade done, even for a traded player exception, keeps hope alive for the Celtics to get something valuable in return.


Bob
MY NOTE:  That would be, by far, the biggest TPE I've ever heard of!  Also, as I understand them, Traded Player Exemptions only work with trades (ergo the "Traded" part).  You cannot use it to sign a free agent.  So, which team would be willing to trade away a $30M+ star just for salary cap relief?

.

Bob, go back and read what I said when this was going down. I said I may have been taking so long because Danny DiID NOT WANT TURNER. That is why he was asking for other players/. I always felt this way, so there you are.

Hayward should be kissing the feet of his agent, because he has given that guy so much pain over the years in negotiating and deciding where he wanted to be. I always thought he just wanted to be home in Indy, family there, twin sister there, now a three million dollar home he just had built. He is a puzzling guy

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Bob, go back and read what I said when this was going down.  I said I may have been taking so long because Danny DiID NOT WANT TURNER.  That is why he was asking for other players/. I always felt this way, so there you are.  

Hayward should be kissing the feet of his agent, because he has given that guy so much pain over the years in negotiating and deciding where he wanted to be.  I always thought he just wanted to be home in Indy, family there, twin sister there, now a three million dollar home he just had built.  He is a puzzling guy

Rosalie,

I ALWAYS read what you write.  Always.


Bob


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Right.............!!!

Hi,
The above posts got me confused. Is GH deal done or there're some alterations, additions, continuation?
All these TPE and sign-and-trade got my head spinning. What's going on?
Thank you very much.

AK

They have not signed anything yet, still waiting to figure out a sign and trade deal helpful to both teams

Rosalie, the proof is in the pudding. Danny must not have wanted Turner and McDermott.

No doubt there, I saiid that Friday night/Saturday before the MJ heist!!!!

They may want our help. Charlotte doesn't have room to fit Hayward into their available cap space. Even if they waive and stretch Batum (at a cost of $9M for three years) I've read that they still cannot fit him in.

If we facilitate a sign and trade, Hayward for a trade exception, that would help Jordan fix his problem. Jordan may have painted himself into a corner.

Danny may be able to get something out of losing Hayward after all.

worcester wrote:Rosalie, the proof is in the pudding. Danny must not have wanted Turner and McDermott.

Apparently not at the cost times three years. The end result is putting luxury tax hell off for at least one year.