Hayward Opts OUT

gyso wrote:They may want our help.  Charlotte doesn't have room to fit Hayward into their available cap space.  Even if they waive and stretch Batum (at a cost of $9M for three years) I've read that they still cannot fit him in.

If we facilitate a sign and trade, Hayward for a trade exception, that would help Jordan fix his problem.  Jordan may have painted himself into a corner.

Danny may be able to get something out of losing Hayward after all.

Gyso,

Waiving Batum or stretching him drives the cost of Hayward up to $39M/year.

I think MJ eyes were bigger than his stomach, as my grandfather used to tell me, and he bit off more than he can chew.

I don't know what Danny can squeeze out of Charlotte but I'll bet it'll be something.  It's in MJ's best interest to give a fat TPE short-term to reduce his long-term luxury tax, which is a multiple of the cap overage.. Every dollar MJ agrees to pay Danny later is $2 - $3 he won't have to pay the league now.  

It's also looking more and more like trading Turner to Boston was Indy's plan more than Danny's.  Many of us  assumed on Draft Day that Danny's selection of Nesmith over Precious was because he had the Turner trade "in hand" and didn't need to draft a big.  If that was an incorrect assumption then more credit should be given to Nesmith, rather than just pigeon holing him as " the one we took because we didn't need the one we passed on".  


Bob


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Oh we of little faith...

So what’s the deal...???

Is this trade done or does Jordan have to do more trimming to fit GH in, in a deal that makes no sense for Hornets...???

bobheckler wrote:

gyso wrote:They may want our help.  Charlotte doesn't have room to fit Hayward into their available cap space.  Even if they waive and stretch Batum (at a cost of $9M for three years) I've read that they still cannot fit him in.

If we facilitate a sign and trade, Hayward for a trade exception, that would help Jordan fix his problem.  Jordan may have painted himself into a corner.

Danny may be able to get something out of losing Hayward after all.

Gyso,

Waiving Batum or stretching him drives the cost of Hayward up to $39M/year.

I think MJ eyes were bigger than his stomach, as my grandfather used to tell me, and he bit off more than he can chew.

I don't know what Danny can squeeze out of Charlotte but I'll bet it'll be something.  It's in MJ's best interest to give a fat TPE short-term to reduce his long-term luxury tax, which is a multiple of the cap overage.. Every dollar MJ agrees to pay Danny later is $2 - $3 he won't have to pay the league now.  

It's also looking more and more like trading Turner to Boston was Indy's plan more than Danny's.  Many of us  assumed on Draft Day that Danny's selection of Nesmith over Precious was because he had the Turner trade "in hand" and didn't need to draft a big.  If that was an incorrect assumption then more credit should be given to Nesmith, rather than just pigeon holing him as " the one we took because we didn't need the one we passed on".  


Bob


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Bob,  

Who would you like Boston to receive if Gordon was traded to Charlotte?
I don’t think Boston would have any interest in taking back Zeller or Malik Monk.

Per Zach Lowe the Celtics would have taken Turner in the trade but would have flipped him quickly.

“I think, really, talking to people and reading the tea leaves as best I could, it really comes down to the Celtics didn’t want Myles Turner,” Lowe said. “...I did hear from some teams around the league that the Celtics have done some preliminary research on what Myles Turner’s trade value would have been to them had they acquired him either in this deal or in a separate deal and obviously didn’t like what they saw.”


Bob
MY NOTE:  The fans wanted Turner, Danny didn't, but what's really interesting is that no other GM wants him either apparently.  That's why Danny couldn't find his next trading partner.  No nibbles.


.


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Thanks gyso

Wow Gordon got flip* and he did it to himself!! Can’t blame the other owner/partners, signing GH to that contract at his age with his history...??? They dodged a bullet. Now he’s like a dead leaf blowing in the wind, can’t see Pacers wanting him either now. Now he’s gonna take a lot lot less, he’s got no choice, no leverage. He made his own karma, kudos for Danny, not getting drawn into a bidding war in a tragic/bad situation.

tjmakz wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

gyso wrote:They may want our help.  Charlotte doesn't have room to fit Hayward into their available cap space.  Even if they waive and stretch Batum (at a cost of $9M for three years) I've read that they still cannot fit him in.

If we facilitate a sign and trade, Hayward for a trade exception, that would help Jordan fix his problem.  Jordan may have painted himself into a corner.

Danny may be able to get something out of losing Hayward after all.

Gyso,

Waiving Batum or stretching him drives the cost of Hayward up to $39M/year.

I think MJ eyes were bigger than his stomach, as my grandfather used to tell me, and he bit off more than he can chew.

I don't know what Danny can squeeze out of Charlotte but I'll bet it'll be something.  It's in MJ's best interest to give a fat TPE short-term to reduce his long-term luxury tax, which is a multiple of the cap overage.. Every dollar MJ agrees to pay Danny later is $2 - $3 he won't have to pay the league now.  

It's also looking more and more like trading Turner to Boston was Indy's plan more than Danny's.  Many of us  assumed on Draft Day that Danny's selection of Nesmith over Precious was because he had the Turner trade "in hand" and didn't need to draft a big.  If that was an incorrect assumption then more credit should be given to Nesmith, rather than just pigeon holing him as " the one we took because we didn't need the one we passed on".  


Bob


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Bob,  

Who would you like Boston to receive if Gordon was traded to Charlotte?
I don’t think Boston would have any interest in taking back Zeller or Malik Monk.

TJ,

Assuming Danny and MJ can't get a 3rd team involved I'd be happy with however big the TPE would be to make MJ's luxury tax bill palatable, although I would be willing to take LoMelo and Devonte Graham to make the numbers work (FYI, that's a joke).


Bob


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Hayward is saying,"Danny, bro, do me a $120M solid please!"

worcester wrote:Hayward is saying,"Danny, bro, do me a $120M solid please!"

Lol wonder what kind of conversations he’s having with his agent....

Life is not fair...!!!

much to do about nothing,IMO.

Haywards going to Charlotte, They have about $88M in salarys with Ball's cap hold.

releasing a streching Batum will save them $18M this year. That will leave them about $38M UNDER the cap.

they can easily absorb Haywards $28M salary then and still be close to $10M under the cap.

I doubt Ainge will be involved, but to think the deal will somehow be scuttled is out there for me.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/charlotte-hornets/cap/

One of the things Danny is REALLY good at is reading the tea leaves and getting out of potential messes way before they blow up in his face like the flaming bag o' poo. He lights it, then runs and never gets caught!

Looks like MJ is now trying to get the crap off his foot.

Charlotte and Sacramento...Graveyards of the NBA now and forever.

db

Wait.. When Hayward opts out he is no longer a Celtic, Correct? He can do and go where he wants for as little per or as much as he can get, correct?
If the above is Fact then how can Danny be picky about anyone he is getting offered back? If Indy says Miles Turner (now we are hearing he didn’t want Turner. Sure) and that’s all you’re getting then thats all your getting or you’re getting nothing because you have no leverage because you no longer have the player. Sure, Indy would have issues fitting in Hayward without dumping some salary but that’s their issue. Again, Hayward no longer belonged to the C’s so what happened was actually what was supposed to happen when one gets greedy and delusional. You get nothing.
Great, we ended up with TT who I’ve always liked and JT who I don’t care much for but we did get something this off season. But lets face it, Danny did screw the Indy deal up. Now, if he signs I.T. And sends Edwards elsewhere he will be well on his way back to my good graces.

Ktron wrote:Wait.. When Hayward opts out he is no longer a Celtic, Correct? He can do and go where he wants for as little per or as much as he can get, correct?
If the above is Fact then how can Danny be picky about anyone he is getting offered back? If Indy says Miles Turner (now we are hearing he didn’t want Turner. Sure) and that’s all you’re getting then thats all your getting or you’re getting nothing because you have no leverage because you no longer have the player. Sure, Indy would have issues fitting in Hayward without dumping some salary but that’s their issue. Again, Hayward no longer belonged to the C’s so what happened was actually what was supposed to happen when one gets greedy and delusional. You get nothing.
Great, we ended up with TT who I’ve always liked and JT who I don’t care much for but we did get something this off season. But lets face it, Danny did screw the Indy deal up. Now, if he signs I.T. And sends Edwards elsewhere he will be well on his way back to my good graces.

ktron,

The "Danny did screw the Indy deal up" statement makes a few assumptions:

1.  That he really wanted Turner and got too greedy.  According to Zach Lowe he spoke with GMs around the league who said Danny was calling them asking for what they considered "fair trade value" was for Turner.  That's not what you do if you really want someone and intend to keep them.

2.  It assumes Indy is giving up Turner reluctantly, but feels it's necessary, to gain Hayward.  If Turner's such hot property then why aren't other GMs busting down their door to get him?  He's available, obviously, and now that the trade for Hayward is busted he's not "set aside" because he's earmarked for a specific trade.  Maybe it's because their idea of Turner's trade value is very different than Indy's, and how great can theirs be if they were offering Turner and not Sabonis?  Clearly they value Sabonis more and, considering Danny just traded Kanter away, Sabonis would have fit into our needs better than Turner, and he's getting paid about the same amount of money, but Sabonis was never on the table.  That should tell you something about how Indy views those two.

3.  The reports, once again through Zach Lowe, are that the offer from Indy was north of $100M, like $106M - $108M or so.  According to a Pacers beat reporter Hayward was willing to take a hometown discount to go there.  The difference between $120M and $108M is $3M/year.  Considering the massive overall size of the contract that's not that big a difference.  This tells me it wasn't the big contract value that swung Hayward towards Charlotte and away from his preferred destination to finish out his career.  It's something else. He could have used the Charlotte offer to motivate Danny to accept less or end up with nothing, right? Didn't happen. Why? Maybe because the centerpiece of the trade with Indy wasn't Turner, like many of us assumed, but Oladipo or Warren and they weren't being offered.

4.  If you look at Turner's numbers they aren't all that impressive.  He averaged 12.1ppg and 6.6rpg in 29.5mpg last season.  Those are underwhelming.  He has a negative assist-to-turnover ratio.  What are Turner's fortes?  3pt shooting and shot blocking, right?  Well, Turner shot 34.4% last season from 3.  That's not great neither (by comparison the much maligned Daniel Theis was 9.2ppg and 6.6rpg in only 24mpg, and Theis took a lot fewer fgas.  Theis also had a >2.1:1 assist-to-turnover ratio).  As far as shot blocking goes Turner had 2.1 blks/game (vs 1.3 for Theis in fewer minutes).  So Turner would be an upgrade on blocks/minute, although not as as much as one might think, and a distinct negative with turnovers.  Theis only shot 33.3% from 3 last year but he took fewer, and if 3pt shooting is one of the big draws of Turner then he should be shooting a lot better than Theis.  And Theis' Net Rating (points scored while he's on the floor/100 possessions - points given up while he's on the floor/100 possessions) is FAR superior to Turner's.  Aside from 3pt shooting, how about 2pt shooting?  Turner's 2pt fg% last season was 54%.  Theis' was 60%. Theis was more effective down low than Turner.  So, why get Turner when we already have Theis for a fraction of the price and there's a lot of overlap in their games?

I will agree with you on one thing, though.  Move Edwards.  Unless Danny wants to go with IT there might not be any reason to do it now but, unless Carsen starts reminding us why he made the club in the first place, he should be gone by the trade deadline.


Bob


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I was not disappointed that Danny did not get Turner because he was never my preferred choice at center.  I resigned myself to believing that Danny would get a stretch guy because Brad loves that.

Danny has come out of this entire situation not completely resolved from his miscalculations.  

GH is gone and there is no logical reason to think otherwise.  Charlotte has enough money tied up in CAP holds to consummate the deal.  

Danny had limited option in terms of moving GH to any number of teams.  In the end any player can find happiness with $120 million guaranteed money in the pipeline.  GH had all the leverage after all is said and done.  All you need is one franchise willing to overspend for a free agent just like Danny Ainge did with AH, and GH or even when you use assets to trade for a guy like KI.

In the end Danny got nothing when GH,  Al Horford and KI left.

What Danny did however was mange to improve this team with a neat change of direction maneuver off the bounce.