Re: Should the Celtics look at Thon Maker?

by **wideclyde** Mon May 30, 2016 6:20 pm

For all of the posters who are worried about all of these tall guys (Bender, Maker, the Chinese kid, etc, etc) their weight right now should probably not be an issue if you think that they are tough enough to keep coming back for more contact after getting clean out a few times. That does not mean that they won't get pushed around for a couple of years, but long term talent is well worth a couple of times losing a rebound, etc as rookies or second year players every once in a while.

Now, toughness is a difficult concept to measure, but if any/all of these kids mentioned in this thread (including Maker) pass the "tough enough" test each and every one of them will get stronger and stronger and weigh more and more over the next 3-4 years without losing any hops, speed or quickness.

We have a great example right on our team. And, although some posters do not particularly like Kelly Olynyk his body has changed dramatically since being drafted and his improved physical capabilities have made him into at least a passable defensive player while also giving him additional confidence. Remember three years ago when he was basically a wind sock blowing in the breeze?

All of the pro teams have plenty of help in physically training and developing players (trainers, strength coaches, agility coaches, nutritionists, etc, etc). None of these guys will be left on their own in any aspect of their future training. Even Sullinger was not left on his own for his training although he may not have been mentally tough enough to follow through on the advice he got.

Look at almost any NBA player of any height and I bet that you will find far more muscle showing on his body than what we used to see in even the 80s. Bird, Parish and McHale all looked like they were food deprived for months when compared to the NBA guys today. The players of the 50s, 60s, 70s all look pathetically puny compared to the muscled up studs that now play in the league. Not sure exactly, but I bet that Bill Russell never played at any more than 220.

So, more muscle will be added as these 19 year old guys only still have their 'teenage' body types. They will surely fill out in the next couple of years into their 'young man' bodies.

Advanced physical training on the pro level is here and is here to stay. I am sure that the Cs are right in line with all the other teams in their league.

I say go out and get the best player of these tall and currently skinny guys and don't worry about his current weight.

by **swish** Mon May 30, 2016 9:34 pm

wideclyde wrote:For all of the posters who are worried about all of these tall guys (Bender, Maker, the Chinese kid, etc, etc) their weight right now should probably not be an issue if you think that they are tough enough to keep coming back for more contact after getting clean out a few times. That does not mean that they won't get pushed around for a couple of years, but long term talent is well worth a couple of times losing a rebound, etc as rookies or second year players every once in a while.

Now, toughness is a difficult concept to measure, but if any/all of these kids mentioned in this thread (including Maker) pass the "tough enough" test each and every one of them will get stronger and stronger and weigh more and more over the next 3-4 years without losing any hops, speed or quickness.

We have a great example right on our team. And, although some posters do not particularly like Kelly Olynyk his body has changed dramatically since being drafted and his improved physical capabilities have made him into at least a passable defensive player while also giving him additional confidence. Remember three years ago when he was basically a wind sock blowing in the breeze?

All of the pro teams have plenty of help in physically training and developing players (trainers, strength coaches, agility coaches, nutritionists, etc, etc). None of these guys will be left on their own in any aspect of their future training. Even Sullinger was not left on his own for his training although he may not have been mentally tough enough to follow through on the advice he got.

Look at almost any NBA player of any height and I bet that you will find far more muscle showing on his body than what we used to see in even the 80s. Bird, Parish and McHale all looked like they were food deprived for months when compared to the NBA guys today. The players of the 50s, 60s, 70s all look pathetically puny compared to the muscled up studs that now play in the league. Not sure exactly, but I bet that Bill Russell never played at any more than 220.

So, more muscle will be added as these 19 year old guys only still have their 'teenage' body types. They will surely fill out in the next couple of years into their 'young man' bodies.

Advanced physical training on the pro level is here and is here to stay. I am sure that the Cs are right in line with all the other teams in their league.

I say go out and get the best player of these tall and currently skinny guys and don't worry about his current weight.

"Look at almost any NBA player of any height and I bet that you will find far more muscle showing on his body than what we used to see in even the 80s. Bird, Parish and McHale all looked like they were food deprived for months when compared to the NBA guys today. The players of the 50s, 60s, 70s all look pathetically puny compared to the muscled up studs that now play in the league. Not sure exactly, but I bet that Bill Russell never played at any more than 220."

Clyde
Just to back up your above statement here are the weight comparisons for players that played center in the years 1956-57, 1985-86 and 2015-16.

1956-57 - Russell - 215 lbs - league average - 208.5 lbs
1985-86 - league average - 230.9 lbs
2015-16 - league average - 252.7 lbs

These 19 year old rookies figure to pack on a few pounds before they will be expected to compete on a level playing field with their older and heavier rivals. Most will look a lot differently when they are 23 years old.

swish

by **tjmakz** Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:43 am

Basketballinsiders.com put out a new mock draft yesterday.
There were some interesting comments about Thon Maker.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/2016-nba-mock-draft-consensus-ver-4-0/

No single player in the 2016 NBA Draft class is more of a mystery than Thon Maker. It’s not because NBA teams have not seen him, because he has been part of a number of high school showcase teams and his name has been floated around for a while. The mystery comes from most teams not knowing he was going to declare for this year’s draft. The plan for Maker was that he was going to do a college season and teams could really drill in on his game and make some decisions on what Maker really is.

There are two big issues with Maker. He’s been on the radar for a while and has not really improved as many would have liked. One scout said he’s basically the same player he was two years ago, leading many to doubt there is another level to his game. The other part is he is still rail thin physically.

Maker’s proponents point to the lack of real challenge over the last year leading to stagnation. The other comment some make is that he was in desperate need of serious pro training to break through, all of which could be true.

Maker has an intriguing mix of skills that’s one part Kevin Durant with a long and rangy three-point game, and another part Kevin Garnett with his long arms and length around the basket. While Maker has never exhibited either player’s fire and tenacity, there is an intriguing tool set that has teams curious.

Maker is one of those guys that could go in the teens or he could slide into the 40s; there’s just not a real consensus on him yet although he has been in to see a number of teams already and the feedback is still very mixed.

by **arambone** Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 am

While Maker has never exhibited either player’s fire and tenacity, there is an intriguing tool set that has teams curious.

Just another guy who never watched him play.

by **tjmakz** Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:41 am

arambone wrote:
While Maker has never exhibited either player’s fire and tenacity, there is an intriguing tool set that has teams curious.

Just another guy who never watched him play.

One NBA scout said he hasn't improved in two years.
Yikes...

by **arambone** Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:47 am

tjmakz wrote:
arambone wrote:
While Maker has never exhibited either player’s fire and tenacity, there is an intriguing tool set that has teams curious.

Just another guy who never watched him play.

One NBA scout said he hasn't improved in two years.
Yikes...

Maker has improved a lot, just not his highlight clips perhaps. He doesn't fumble passes anymore, his decision making and passing have improved dramatically, he grew another inch to 7'1", and his ball handling and jump shot are more polished than ever. And he now shoots 79% from the FT line.

by **dboss** Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:35 am

Thorn worked out For Indiana and Larry Bird. After the workout Maker went around the perimeter draining 3 pointers.

Dboss

by **arambone** Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:54 pm

Thon Maker after working out for the Pacers

by **Shamrock1000** Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:01 pm

arambone wrote:
Thon Maker after working out for the Pacers

Seems like a smart, good kid, a hard worker. He could really develop under Brad's tutelage.

by **arambone** Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:10 pm

Shamrock1000 wrote:
arambone wrote:
Thon Maker after working out for the Pacers

Seems like a smart, good kid, a hard worker. He could really develop under Brad's tutelage.

Yeah. At the end of the video he says he started watching TV at 12 years old, and that's when he discovered the NBA. He started playing a year later, at 13.

Compare that to Ben Simmons, who used to watch his father play pro ball as a toddler. Basically born with a basketball in his hands. That's why I think Simmons is much more of a finished product than people realize.

by **arambone** Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:21 pm

A lot of the guys labeled as stars and superstars in the NBA are volume scorers who don't usually shoot high %s, they just get and take a high number of shots.

Being able to get your shot off regularly to take all those shots is part of what makes them a star. Thon can get his shot off pretty much at will in the NBA, even if a lot of those shots will be 3s and long 2s.

Look at the shooting %s of big stars like Paul George, DeRozan, Wiggins, Melo, Porzingis, Kobe, etc. Nothing is going to stop Maker from being a big star along those lines of being a volume scorer.

Most people, including anonymous scouts, won't even realize it until they see Thon standing on the court next to all the NBA guys, and people can finally make the connection between Thon's 7'1" height and Combine testing #s, and what that actually looks like on a basketball court against NBAers.

When Greek Freak was being scouted, there were all sorts of "anonymous scouts" reports that the video footage of Greek Freak's athleticism was deceptive, because of the level of Greek competition G.F. was facing in the video footage.

Now we hear the same things about Thon, people saying he doesn't really move like he appears to in his videos. As if it's all fancy editing and camera tricks that make him look athletic.

by **bobheckler** Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:09 pm

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2016/06/03/thon-maker-nba-detroit-pistons/85352438/

Thon Maker makes 'em laugh after Detroit Pistons workout

Vince Ellis, Detroit Free Press

6:13 p.m. EDT June 3, 2016

Should the Celtics look at Thon Maker? - Page 7 636005608143413474-AP-Draft-Combine-Basketball-

Should the Celtics look at Thon Maker? - Page 7 636005608143413474-AP-Draft-Combine-Basketball-

(Photo: Charles Rex Arbogast, Associated Press)

The question sounded better in my head, before I started talking.

The need to add bulk and strength is an obvious area for improvement for 7-foot NBA draft prospect Thon Mark of Sudan.

So ...

“What do you do to gain weight?” I asked.

After a brief pause and look of bewilderment, Maker answered: “Just eat.”

The group of reporters at the Detroit Pistons' practice facility broke into laughter.

Maker might be the most intriguing of the six draft prospects who worked out for the Pistons today. He was joined by three other power forwards -- UNLV freshman Stephen Zimmerman, New Mexico State sophomore Pascal Siakam and Frenchman Petr Cornelie -- and two point guards in Isaiah Taylor (Texas) and Cat Barber (N.C. State).

Maker, 19, could be the first player to enter the NBA from high school since 2005. He declared for the draft in April, and the league cleared him after it was determined that he graduated high school in 2015 and spent this past year at a prep school.

DraftExpress.com ranks Maker No. 32 on its list of prospects for the June 23 draft. The website writes: “Lacks lower body strength and not clear how much he can continue to fill out with his very narrow frame.”

There was probably a better way for me to phrase the question to the rail-thin 215-pounder. But Maker saved the day.

“It’s just the timing, the timing of your meals,” Maker said. “I should be eating something right now. I’m in my 15-minute window to get something in.

“After that, you just got to get as many meals as you can. For me, it doesn’t matter. I’m not on a strict diet. I’m not like, 'You can’t eat burgers or anything like that.' Other people who got to lose weight or gotta maintain a certain weight, they got to stay away from that. But for me, it’s just putting it on, because I’m always gonna burn it off. I’m never gonna be overweight.”

Various mocks have Maker’s draft range all over the place.

He offers an intriguing mix of height and skill. He has some notoriety because of YouTube mix tapes that show a 7-footer capable of pulling off crossover moves and dropping three-pointers.

Teams are still building their dossiers on Maker, as he’s been very busy with predraft workouts already with the Atlanta Hawks, Chiago Bulls, Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns and Utah Jazz.

But he doesn’t get the mystery man stuff.

“I don’t know why they gave me that name,” Maker said. “I hear that a lot in interviews, but I tend not to read on it.

“I don’t really like reading on myself. I don’t know those guys. I don’t know what their background has been. Have they played basketball? I don’t know. I just don’t know them so I don’t trust them.”

bob
MY NOTE: What his answer showed is that he isn't on a specific, high-protein diet. He's on a "see-food" diet, which is not necessarily what he should be eating if what he's trying to do is put on 30+# of muscle. If we could just somehow average out Thon Maker's and Jared Sullinger's metabolisms into a single player we'd have a real monster. As it is, however, his thighs are as thick as mine and, as any of you who have met me in person will attest, I am NOT a big guy. It's easy to put weight on your arms and shoulders, not so easy putting it on the legs. How he is used by NBA coaches is critical. He could have a long and great career or a very short one because his body will not take NBA pounding as it currently is. A 215# PF? How long would he last at that position?

Here's another picture of him. Those are NOT wide shoulders. His tank top practically covers them.

And I believe he has already worked out for the Celtics. The author didn't mention us when listing teams he has worked out for.

.

by **arambone** Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:45 pm

Thon wrote:I don’t know those guys. I don’t know what their background has been. Have they played basketball? I don’t know. I just don’t know them so I don’t trust them.”

I love this quote. Schlubby little Jonathan Givony declared a year ago and kept on declaring that Maker had small hands and was an average athlete, with a terrible IQ.

Now Givony looks like an idiot who never played basketball, after Maker broke Combine athletic records for 6"11" and taller players, and his hands measured out two or three times as big as little Jonny Givony's.

by **arambone** Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:59 pm

Maker's lower body strength is definitely a concern, and probably for the long term as well.

But from Day One Maker might be the most vertical player in the NBA. He gets up higher than Rudy Gobert, and gets off the ground even quicker. Porzingis might get up as high as Maker does, but probably not. DeAndre Jordan probably gets up as high as Maker, but Maker is much, much more agile in space, and Maker's second jump is much quicker than Jordan's.

Being 7'1" has disadvantages, as Porzingis (7'3") experienced last year. Maker and Porzingis can be out-leveraged by shorter players, and Maker will probably always get out-leveraged in certain situations.

Maker will be outmuscled and look bad on the wrong end of highlight clips, but he should still be able to contest and disrupt shots at the rim after getting backed down and outmuscled.

It will be pretty interesting to watch how Maker's vertical and lateral superiority are counter-balanced by his lack of strength.

His lack of strength may end up pushing him to the bench, perhaps even long-term, unless he proves himself at SF.

But I expect Maker to be a bench superstar early in his career, including his rookie year, and I expect him to put on just enough weight to be a starting PF and superstar within a few years.

by **wideclyde** Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:16 pm

Another factor in this kid gaining some weight is his lifting program which has not yet been mentioned, but certainly will be a huge factor for him about two days after he is drafted. He is in the prime years of his life to start gaining the strength he needs to play in the NBA.

I am sure that each NBA team has plenty of support folks in their program to help these skinny kids. A nutritionist, a chef, etc, to go along with the team strength coaching staff will most likely meet with him as soon as he steps foot in to the Waltham practice facility.

Not all guys seem to take the available assistance to heart (Sullinger?), but I am sure that most do. This kid sounds pretty intelligent so maybe he will really buy in and learn eat correctly as well as strength train right away.

Again, as I posted earlier on this thread, if you like his talents, his intelligence and his toughness don't yet worry about his weight.

by **arambone** Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:33 pm

wideclyde wrote:Another factor in this kid gaining some weight is his lifting program which has not yet been mentioned, but certainly will be a huge factor for him about two days after he is drafted. He is in the prime years of his life to start gaining the strength he needs to play in the NBA.

I am sure that each NBA team has plenty of support folks in their program to help these skinny kids. A nutritionist, a chef, etc, to go along with the team strength coaching staff will most likely meet with him as soon as he steps foot in to the Waltham practice facility.

Not all guys seem to take the available assistance to heart (Sullinger?), but I am sure that most do. This kid sounds pretty intelligent so maybe he will really buy in and learn eat correctly as well as strength train right away.

Again, as I posted earlier on this thread, if you like his talents, his intelligence and his toughness don't yet worry about his weight.

I think he was busting his butt in the weight room for the last year, which is how he got up to 225 lbs. He only lost the 10 lbs in the last two months while training for the Combine/draft.

He chose his last prep school in Canada because of their weight room/strength/coaching staff. I guess his metabolism is just sky high right now so training hard makes it difficult/impossible to keep extra muscle on. That will change in a few years.

by **arambone** Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:34 pm

Projected #1 pick next year, Harry Giles, similarly busted his butt in the weight room, but saw all his gains evaporate when he injured his knee.

by **dboss** Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:22 pm

Given access to top trainers on whatever team drafts him he will get bigger and stronger.

I do not think any teams expects Maker to be NBA ready from a physical standpoint.

Dboss

by **112288** Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:00 am

HEY KG WAS NO STUD.......HE WAS LEAN AND MEAN!

112288

by **arambone** Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:41 am

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:00 am

If Maker has a lot of confidence in himself and has superstar potential, why doesn't he go to college for a year and be a top 3 pick in the 2017 Draft?
His rookie contract is probably going to be only $1m to $1.5m per year in this draft.
He would get over $5m per year as a top 3 draft pick next summer.

Manute Bol always had a very think bone structure.
The same is true for Thon Maker.

by **arambone** Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:00 am

tjmakz wrote:If Maker has a lot of confidence in himself and has superstar potential, why doesn't he go to college for a year and be a top 3 pick in the 2017 Draft?
His rookie contract is probably going to be only $1m to $1.5m per year in this draft.
He would get over $5m per year as a top 3 draft pick next summer.

Manute Bol always had a very think bone structure.
The same is true for Thon Maker.

by **arambone** Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:06 am

Actually, Maker and Manute Bol and Bol Bol are all South Sudanese. Probably distant relatives.

Then there's Thon's little brother Matur Maker

by **bobheckler** Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:02 am

arambone wrote:Maker's lower body strength is definitely a concern, and probably for the long term as well.

But from Day One Maker might be the most vertical player in the NBA. He gets up higher than Rudy Gobert, and gets off the ground even quicker. Porzingis might get up as high as Maker does, but probably not. DeAndre Jordan probably gets up as high as Maker, but Maker is much, much more agile in space, and Maker's second jump is much quicker than Jordan's.

Being 7'1" has disadvantages, as Porzingis (7'3") experienced last year. Maker and Porzingis can be out-leveraged by shorter players, and Maker will probably always get out-leveraged in certain situations.

Maker will be outmuscled and look bad on the wrong end of highlight clips, but he should still be able to contest and disrupt shots at the rim after getting backed down and outmuscled.

It will be pretty interesting to watch how Maker's vertical and lateral superiority are counter-balanced by his lack of strength.

His lack of strength may end up pushing him to the bench, perhaps even long-term, unless he proves himself at SF.

But I expect Maker to be a bench superstar early in his career, including his rookie year, and I expect him to put on just enough weight to be a starting PF and superstar within a few years.

arambone,

I think this is a pretty fair summation by you. His lower body strength is a concern and may always be a concern. That will effect his stamina and effectiveness. No legs, no lift. His has great verticality but his ability to apply it, when he has to get around players who are MUCH stronger and not inclined to make it easy for him to use it, calls into question his effectiveness. As far as his starting and becoming a superstar goes, well, I'm going to wait to see if these concerns you listed are negligible or overcome before I say that. He has never laced up an NBA sneaker.

bob

.

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:05 am

in the video we saw Turner, who cannot post up most starting centers in the NBA, was posting up Maker like buttah.

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