Re: Should the Celtics look at Thon Maker?

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun May 15, 2016 12:32 pm

Kid is intriguing, if he blows Danny and staff away at workout and shows he is the real deal, we should take him at 16, then get Hammons, Jones or Stone at 23 so we can have a traditional rim protecting banger.

by **steve3344** Sun May 15, 2016 1:46 pm

I heard Thon Maker has been getting career advice from Robert Upshaw on how to maximize his talents, improve his draft position and become a star in the NBA.

by **dboss** Sun May 15, 2016 2:01 pm

Oh Jesus

Dboss

by **steve3344** Sun May 15, 2016 2:08 pm

dboss wrote:Oh Jesus

Dboss

Hey, it worked for Robert...

by **arambone** Sun May 15, 2016 3:49 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Kid is intriguing, if he blows Danny and staff away at workout and shows he is the real deal, we should take him at 16, then get Hammons, Jones or Stone at 23 so we can have a traditional rim protecting banger.

I'm wicked nervous he's not going to drop to 16, like when we didn't trade up for Myles Turner last year. And in a redraft Turner would probably go top 5, even if the mock drafts had him around 10 the whole time.

by **arambone** Sun May 15, 2016 3:51 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Kid is intriguing, if he blows Danny and staff away at workout and shows he is the real deal, we should take him at 16, then get Hammons, Jones or Stone at 23 so we can have a traditional rim protecting banger.

At least you can see that the kid is intriguing. Most people are too afraid to trust their eyes, and let their ears tell them what they are seeing. So they go straight for the Robert Upshaw or Perry Jones jokes.

Same thing happened in 2013 when i started a thread on nbadraft.net titled, "Rudy Gobert could be special. Where will he go?"

by **arambone** Sun May 15, 2016 3:53 pm

Same thing happened when I said Greek Freek should go #3 to Washington instead of Otto Porter.

Same thing happened last year when I said Porzingis could be a hall of famer.

And when I said Myles Turner should go top 5, and Porzingis was better than DRussell and Okafor.

by **arambone** Sun May 15, 2016 3:55 pm

arambone wrote:Wed, 05/29/2013 at 7:34pm
arambone

Gobert could be special. Where does he go?
He's not going to fit your prototype of the ideal center, and he is still 2-3 years away from his pre-peak days, but Gobert could be a killer finesse scorer and shot blocker. Apparently high bbiq as well for passing, cutting, and defensive rotations.

I'd guess 265 will be his prime weight in a few years, but he could be interesting much sooner.

As long as you're not expecting him to play like Shaq or Dwight defensively, Gobert could be like a better, longer, tougher Nenad Kristic.

Gobert isnt a freak athlete, but he's a freak and he's an athlete. Impossible to precisely project skill development in big men, but he shows some touch and polish already. I think he's smart enough to develop a nice array of rangy moves and counter moves, even if he might not have the quickest instincts and reactions to his defender.

As a Celtics fan, Gobert might be very interesting next to Sullinger. Gobert could even get some time in a power forward role, using his length defensively to partially compensate for his slower feet.

I think he'll get quicker as he gets stronger, and develop a distinctive and effective game. 18 pts, 10 rebounds, and 3.5 blocks in his prime at 265 lbs.

He could go top 10 or 25th though. I hope Danny rolls the dice at 16 if Adams is gone. Where else would he fit? Sac too high?

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/gobert-could-be-special-where-does-he-go

by **arambone** Sun May 15, 2016 4:04 pm

Check out what I wrote about Porzingis before he withdrew from the 2014 draft at the last minute.

Under the name Northern Lightning. You might recognize the tone, lol:

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=71450.0

northern lightning wrote:You guys don't know what you're talking about.

You just heard his name for the first time in the past week, and you're already forming hard opinions.

If Porzingis played college basketball last year you'd know much more about him and would be all over him at 17.

Why you shouldn't create threads like this

It goes on for pages, with me explaining how good Porzingis would be for the Celtics and how even the 6th pick should be considered for him.

One person, and a futile fight for common sense.

by **NYCelt** Sun May 15, 2016 4:49 pm

kdp59 wrote:Just remember he's played against high school players.

I am not a scout nor am I a Draft expert. But I will defer to those that are.

Perhaps Maker ends up as the next KG, but I doubt that any of us could know from his play so far.

kip,

I have to agree that from what little any of us can have seen do far, there's really no way to know what Maker represents. High risk/high reward, I suppose. As others have said, maybe with our 3rd pick in the first round, although I'd rather risk that he's still there in the second. We have a good shot at getting the scoring we need with the first two picks, so I don't think it makes sense to let a prep/high school player bump us from that need. I think there are more NBA ready centers that might be on the board in the late first round, so I'd go in that direction first. Next year's draft promises to be much better in all departments, and we'll have picks to build with there as well. We should be able to get ourselves where we need without potentially wasting one of our first two picks this year.

Regards

by **arambone** Sun May 15, 2016 5:06 pm

Here's a new Thon video with great footage. I'll stress this one more time, but when Draft Express told you Thon was an "average athlete" with "small hands" they were dead wrong, so ask yourselves why you should trust them in the rest of their evaluation.

Another dead wrong thing DX said is that Thon is a terrible passer with bad feel for the game. Thon is a good/great passer for a 7'1 guy, pretty much elite. And this new video shows a lot of examples.

I think DX based their critique almost entirely on the Nike Hoops Summit last summer, when Thon was playing with brand new teammates for the first and last time, and probably made a few bad passes that DX was eager to jump on, and "prove" that Maker wasn't the next Durant.

by **arambone** Sun May 15, 2016 5:25 pm

Draft Express called Thon Maker an average athlete, but touts Dragan Bender as a phenomenal athlete.

Take a look at their vert leap numbers:

Maker 32" standing vert. 36.5" max vert
Bender 24.5" standing vert. 27.5" max vert

If that doesn't tell you that Draft Express is unreliable when it comes to Thon Maker, I don't know what will.
Of course, if Bender had been hyped since 15 as the next Durant, and Maker had been a Draft Express discovery, DX would be saying opposite things about each prospect.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Thon-Maker-70462/
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dragan-Bender-62877/

by **NYCelt** Sun May 15, 2016 5:33 pm

For what it's worth, I'm not crazy about Draft Express either. Or most of the other so called draft analyst boards. I find the opinions from some of the more proven and longer established national publications, where at least the writers need to have some actual training and accomplishments, are better. Although even those can have a high degree of bias.

I generally look at everything, throw it into a pile, and try and make sense of it. When it comes to draft analysis of college basketball or football, however, I tend to trust my own eyes and what I've seen as I watch the games. Some of these online draft board writers seem to have been sleeping when the games are on. Past their bedtimes, perhaps?

by **arambone** Sun May 15, 2016 5:45 pm

Thon's mistake was being discovered by the internet before he was discovered by the mock draft community. It was like an invasion of their turf, and they would have just looked like bandwagon joiners if they scouted him fairly.

Brad and Danny are smarter than that.

by **arambone** Sun May 15, 2016 6:03 pm

NYCelt wrote:
kdp59 wrote:Just remember he's played against high school players.

I am not a scout nor am I a Draft expert. But I will defer to those that are.

Perhaps Maker ends up as the next KG, but I doubt that any of us could know from his play so far.

kip,

I have to agree that from what little any of us can have seen do far, there's really no way to know what Maker represents. High risk/high reward, I suppose. As others have said, maybe with our 3rd pick in the first round, although I'd rather risk that he's still there in the second. We have a good shot at getting the scoring we need with the first two picks, so I don't think it makes sense to let a prep/high school player bump us from that need. I think there are more NBA ready centers that might be on the board in the late first round, so I'd go in that direction first. Next year's draft promises to be much better in all departments, and we'll have picks to build with there as well. We should be able to get ourselves where we need without potentially wasting one of our first two picks this year.

Regards

Just some food for thought, but not long ago Thon Maker was the top prospect in that legendary class, and there's still a solid chance he emerges as the best player from that class.

Thon Maker, Orangeville Prep (Can.), F, 2016

Why you can’t miss him: Maker isn’t ranked in the ESPN 100 only because ESPN doesn’t rank players who play outside of the U.S. Before he moved from The Carlisle School in Virginia to Orangeville Prep, Maker was considered the top ranked player in ESPN’s 2016 rankings. Maker took home MVP honors at the prestigious NBPA Top 100 Camp this summer.

Harry Giles is talked about as the next Chris Webber, but like Ben Simmons he has zero range on his jump shot.

I tend to believe that if these kids were any good at shooting, they would be doing it already, since they play bball 24/7.

Everybody thinks a jump shot can be easily learned in the NBA, but it's more rare than we'd think. Kawhi Leonard and Paul George are a couple of amazing examples of learning how to shoot from outside well once in the NBA, but many more guys like DWade never figure it out.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun May 15, 2016 10:32 pm

arambone wrote:
NYCelt wrote:
kdp59 wrote:Just remember he's played against high school players.

I am not a scout nor am I a Draft expert. But I will defer to those that are.

Perhaps Maker ends up as the next KG, but I doubt that any of us could know from his play so far.

kip,

I have to agree that from what little any of us can have seen do far, there's really no way to know what Maker represents. High risk/high reward, I suppose. As others have said, maybe with our 3rd pick in the first round, although I'd rather risk that he's still there in the second. We have a good shot at getting the scoring we need with the first two picks, so I don't think it makes sense to let a prep/high school player bump us from that need. I think there are more NBA ready centers that might be on the board in the late first round, so I'd go in that direction first. Next year's draft promises to be much better in all departments, and we'll have picks to build with there as well. We should be able to get ourselves where we need without potentially wasting one of our first two picks this year.

Regards

Just some food for thought, but not long ago Thon Maker was the top prospect in that legendary class, and there's still a solid chance he emerges as the best player from that class.

Thon Maker, Orangeville Prep (Can.), F, 2016

Why you can’t miss him: Maker isn’t ranked in the ESPN 100 only because ESPN doesn’t rank players who play outside of the U.S. Before he moved from The Carlisle School in Virginia to Orangeville Prep, Maker was considered the top ranked player in ESPN’s 2016 rankings. Maker took home MVP honors at the prestigious NBPA Top 100 Camp this summer.

Harry Giles is talked about as the next Chris Webber, but like Ben Simmons he has zero range on his jump shot.

I tend to believe that if these kids were any good at shooting, they would be doing it already, since they play bball 24/7.

Everybody thinks a jump shot can be easily learned in the NBA, but it's more rare than we'd think. Kawhi Leonard and Paul George are a couple of amazing examples of learning how to shoot from outside well once in the NBA, but many more guys like DWade never figure it out.

D Wade who I hate is not the best example, hes got over 20,000 points and didn't score them all on drives and dunks, maybe Tony Allen is a better example, Wade has always had a deadly elbow jumper to compliment his slashing game, he just hasn't excelled at the 3.....we obviously see things different. Like I said I hate Wade, but hes a certain HoFer and 3 time champion, probably the 2nd best 2 guard of his era after Kobe.

by **arambone** Sun May 15, 2016 11:43 pm

Yeah, Simmons can probably develop a mid-range jumper. Maybe he already has one but just didn't show it. Same with Harry Giles.

by **tjmakz** Mon May 16, 2016 4:33 pm

When I saw Thon Maker had the highest vertical reach at the 2016 Combine, I wondered who had the highest of all time since they have been keeping track of it.
The answer is Ben Simmons in 2015.
Now, I don't know when Ben was measured, but it looks like some get measured even before going to college.
Ben's vertical reach was 12'6".
When you add that with a LeBron like attack of the rim and his ball handling abilities and vision, wow, what a tough player to stop getting to the rim.
Interestingly, Bol Bol who is Manute Bol's son, he was also measured last year, as a 15 year old.
Bol Bol who is still growing, also reached 12'3" which is the same as Thon Maker.
Getting back to Maker, I am not nearly as high on him as rambone is.
He clearly has potential, but he is going to get pushed around for 2 or 3 or more years until he gets stronger. Even after the Combine, he is still being projected to be picked in the late 1st round or early 2nd round. I could see a team taking him earlier, sometime after the lottery.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&source=All&sort=13

by **Shamrock1000** Mon May 16, 2016 5:43 pm

arambone wrote:Thon's mistake was being discovered by the internet before he was discovered by the mock draft community. It was like an invasion of their turf, and they would have just looked like bandwagon joiners if they scouted him fairly.

Brad and Danny are smarter than that.

Bingo. They are totally out thinking themselves.

Another thing I like about the kid is his intellegence and maturity. He is going to work on his game and continue to improve. This guy is not another Fab Melo. If he is still there at 23 (or whenever our pick is), we should definitely take him. If it seems he will be gone, we should even consider taking him at 16. Depending on how things play out, we could even trade down to get him and pick up another asset.

by **112288** Mon May 16, 2016 6:01 pm

What everyone is missing the key fact.........he's an 18 years old kid....his body is still developing...........he is 3 years from developing a man's body.......let alone working with professional athletic trainers!

112288

by **Shamrock1000** Mon May 16, 2016 6:11 pm

112288 wrote:What everyone is missing the key fact.........he's an 18 years old kid....his body is still developing...........he is 3 years from developing a man's body.......let alone working with professional athletic trainers!

112288

Not sure everyone's missing that (also, he's 19). I think people are guessing that this kid has serious potential, and it would be nice to get him now with a low 1st or high 2nd. Most low 1sts/high 2nds don't pan out, so why not take a chance with high potential rather than a surer bet with a low celing.

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon May 16, 2016 8:48 pm

I like the activity and energy Maker has on defense, obviously KG who was a skinny guy had that and would battle with anyone, Gobert has that, I don't see any of that activity in Bender's defense on film.

by **arambone** Mon May 16, 2016 9:03 pm

tjmakz wrote:When I saw Thon Maker had the highest vertical reach at the 2016 Combine, I wondered who had the highest of all time since they have been keeping track of it.
The answer is Ben Simmons in 2015.
Now, I don't know when Ben was measured, but it looks like some get measured even before going to college.
Ben's vertical reach was 12'6".
When you add that with a LeBron like attack of the rim and his ball handling abilities and vision, wow, what a tough player to stop getting to the rim.
Interestingly, Bol Bol who is Manute Bol's son, he was also measured last year, as a 15 year old.
Bol Bol who is still growing, also reached 12'3" which is the same as Thon Maker.
Getting back to Maker, I am not nearly as high on him as rambone is.
He clearly has potential, but he is going to get pushed around for 2 or 3 or more years until he gets stronger. Even after the Combine, he is still being projected to be picked in the late 1st round or early 2nd round. I could see a team taking him earlier, sometime after the lottery.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&source=All&sort=13

Simmons' numbers are from the LSU team Combine, and the numbers are not credible at all. And Simmons didn't even show up to get measured (another thing LSU exaggerated), let alone test his vert. Don't trust those numbers.

by **arambone** Mon May 16, 2016 9:06 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:I like the activity and energy Maker has on defense, obviously KG who was a skinny guy had that and would battle with anyone, Gobert has that, I don't see any of that activity in Bender's defense on film.

If Bender had that activity and energy, he wouldn't be stuck on the end of the bench as a 7'1 guy in Israel.

Like I said, DX and most other mock draft sites don't really look at defense much, other than shots blocked and steals perhaps.

Skal has terrible defensive feel, reaction speed, strength, and toughness, but DX couldn't care less. Same things with Bender, more or less.

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon May 16, 2016 9:22 pm

arambone wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:I like the activity and energy Maker has on defense, obviously KG who was a skinny guy had that and would battle with anyone, Gobert has that, I don't see any of that activity in Bender's defense on film.

If Bender had that activity and energy, he wouldn't be stuck on the end of the bench as a 7'1 guy in Israel.

Like I said, DX and most other mock draft sites don't really look at defense much, other than shots blocked and steals perhaps.

Skal has terrible defensive feel, reaction speed, strength, and toughness, but DX couldn't care less. Same things with Bender, more or less.

no nothing of Benders stay in Israel, how did he do? was he there a whole season?

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